Save My Game

[hexgrid]

Example: PCs know BBEG has the evil artifact and is going to use it to take over the city. He's at the temple right now performing the ritual. Instead of rushing in and trying to stop it by themselves, they run to the City Watch and demand its help in stopping it.

One answer for this is to have the city government inform the PCs that they've been conscripted into service, and it's specifically the PC's job, not the City Watch's, to deal with these situations. The job even comes with a small monthly stipend.

After this, if the PC continue to ask for help, the response will be "What? That's what we have you for!"

(This isn't my idea, by the way, it's straight from the Night of Dissolution adventure that comes with Ptolus.)

 

[Guardsmith]

Everyone has good suggestions, but my players will counter them.

If the guards call them crazy, they say "Well, we'll wait and see who is right."

If I send only two low level watchmen with them, they b*tch that they are only getting two low level guys and demand more help.

If conscripted, they say, "But we don't want to join the City Watch."

Obviously, I'm hypothosizing their reactions, but it is based on previous experience with these players. They want the help and they don't understand why they can't get it.

 

[Gwaihir]

My players generally have the other problem, charging in like crazy before considering the ramifications.

But in this case I'd:

Let them go get help, if they make a reasonable case, I'd give it to them, then ratchet the encounter up enough to make it a challenge anyway.

But if they take so long to recruit help, then teh BBEG conquers the city, then perhaps they have a REAL big challenge ahead of them.

But it sounds like your PLAYERS are more into character preservation, than being bold with their characters. back to the original problem.

 

[Presto2112]

Obviously, I'm hypothosizing their reactions, but it is based on previous experience with these players. They want the help and they don't understand why they can't get it.

Maybe they can't get it because it simply isn't available. City Watchmen would likely be hired to take care of mundane crimes, like murder, thievery, kidnapping, and the like, as well as defending the city walls from goblin invasion, etc. Powerful necromancers are possibly neither in their job description, nor in their realm of ability to handle, so not only would the Watchmaster not put them in harm's way, he could possibly face the desertion of a lot of his troops if he did make them accompany the PCs.

Another thing to do would be to give the BBEG a number of low-level mooks roughly equivalent to the number of city watch that do show up. If they can stack the odds, so can you.

 

[Black_Swan]

There's nothing wrong with them going and getting the city watch...just open up the DMG get the stats for a level 1 warrior and have them tag along.

OR...you have the city watch thank them and then ask the party to stay here while they go deal with it. It's not like the police will ask you for help if you tell them you know a drug deal is going down in some warehouse somewhere. They take the tip..maybe keep you for questioning..and then send you on your way.

If they're magistrates or deputies or something then I'd expect help as a player from guards. In which case just plan for it in your adventure.

Maybe have the guard be in the pocket of the BBEG? So rather than helping..the guards will slowly take statements, or jail them for disturbance of the peace...once it dawns on the PC's that something isn't right, they may think twice about asking the city guard for help.

 

[Dremmen]

Maybe have the guard be in the pocket of the BBEG? So rather than helping..the guards will slowly take statements, or jail them for disturbance of the peace...once it dawns on the PC's that something isn't right, they may think twice about asking the city guard for help.

A very good idea Black Swan

 

[Pbartender]

Situation #1:

Players - "We know the BBEG has the evil artifact and is going to use it to take over the city. He's at the temple right now performing the ritual!"

Town Guards - "Head over to the temple and do what you can to stop him. I'll call out the guards and meet you there."

Players - "But we need your help! Wah! Wah!"

Town Guards - "And I'm giving it. It'll take time to call out the full force of the militia, and you can't expect my patrol squad to stand against the sort of magic you suggest. You, on the other hand, are heroes... Oh yes, we've heard about you and your exploits. But we don't have time for this, if you hurry you may be able to ruin the ritual and we won't need the guards."

Assuming the PCs go confront the BBEG on their own, the guards can show up just in time to congratulate them on foiling the BBEG's plan... "Looks like there's nothing left for us to do, but clean up the mess."

Situation #2:

Players - "We know the BBEG has the evil artifact and is going to use it to take over the city. He's at the temple right now performing the ritual! We need your help!"

Town Guards - "YOU need OUR help? Ha! Ha! That's a good one... Did you hear that boys? they want OUR help! What do you expect us to do when get there? Poke him with sticks? He's got the Freaking Evil Artifact for crying out loud! The guardsmen can stand against that. We're here to arrest the drunkards, roust out the beggars, keep the pickpockets from getting too greedy, the whores from getting too roudy and make sure no goblins sneak into the town. BBEGs and Evil Artifacts are in your job description, pal, not mine. Better get a move on then, before it's too late and there's no town council left to reward you for doing you job."

Situation #3:

Players - "We know the BBEG has the evil artifact and is going to use it to take over the city. He's at the temple right now performing the ritual! We need your help!"

Town Guards - "Who are you, and what authority do you have to order ME around?"


In other words, you need to make it clear that A) the PCs are heroes in this game and should act accordingly and B) in this sort of situation average townsperson NPCs are a liability, not an asset.

 

[paradox42]

If they insist on having help, then let them have it- just be sure you divide the XP (if the PC-side wins) amongst all comers, PC and NPC alike- just as Crothian suggested. Those 1st-level Warrior guards (who survive) will be shooting up in the levels pretty quickly, while the PCs are stuck in neutral.

More importantly, up the power of the BBEG and his henchmen- spontaneously, behind-the-scenes- so the guards are either useless, or occupied with the henchmen and can't help the PCs at all against the BBEG himself. Then the PCs will be forced into a showdown with the BBEG, whether they want it or not; if they avoid said showdown, then the BBEG just wins. Game over, they lose. IME, most players hate to lose, and will do what they have to in such a situation even if their helpful city guards aren't any real help after all.

You could also give the BBEG and/or one or more henchmen some good area-effect attack spells, or even just loads of Alchemist's Fire. Having an entire cadre of city guards with the party means lots of people crammed together in tight spaces- there's no avoiding that, since going in in small groups really just means doing it the way the PCs would have done it if going in by themselves (except that the guards are considerably less competent and powerful, and thus most likely to be slaughtered). Take advantage of the grouped-together allies and blow things up. Once the players see that the guards are basically useless, they'll stop looking for help and do things "the right way-" meaning, on their own.

And if you use the area-affect trick, if the PCs ever try the "let's hire some help" thing again- the guards will reject them out of hand, immediately, and they'll have an excellent reason for doing so. "What! Get thirty more men killed supporting your glorious attack? What kind of idiots do you take us for? Handle it yourselves the way you should have last time!"

EDIT: Ooo, Black Swan's idea is a good one. BBEGs buy off the local authorities all the time in heroic fiction, it's part of why the heroes have to step up to the plate.

 

[Desdichado]

Everyone has good suggestions, but my players will counter them.

If the guards call them crazy, they say "Well, we'll wait and see who is right."

We will indeed. How is that a counter exactly? Either the PC's go solve things on their own, or they don't and the town goes kablooey.

If I send only two low level watchmen with them, they b*tch that they are only getting two low level guys and demand more help.

That's not a counter, that's just being whiney.

If conscripted, they say, "But we don't want to join the City Watch."

So's that.

Obviously, I'm hypothosizing their reactions, but it is based on previous experience with these players. They want the help and they don't understand why they can't get it.

To be perfectly honest with you, I'm not enamored of either your response or theirs. Being penalized for trying to find creative solutions to a problem rather than just hopping on the rails and riding the DM's train to the adventure's obvious conclusion is no fun as a player. Being told that it's "not very heroic" is adding insult to injury.

At the same time, players who expect everything that they could think of to be wildly successful and then whine when it isn't is very tiresome too. Why should they expect that the City Watch would 1) give them the time of day in the first place, 2) believe a single word that they say, 3) even if they do 1 and 2, why should they drop everything to run to the PC's aid, etc.

If I were DMing, I'd probably have the City Watch listen to the PCs and depending on the PC's and their methods, I'd either 1) throw them out for being rabble-rousers and vigilantes--or if they really wanted to try and get nasty with the Watch, lock them up for being rabble-rousers and vigilantes, or 2) send a small token force (three or four level 1-2 warriors) to check out their claims and see what's what. If the PC's complain that the Watch isn't as helpful as they'd like, I'd calmly explain that, "what--you think the entire setting revolves around you and your character's problems?" or not so calmly reach across the table and smack them for whining to me.

That said, we're so far only hearing one side of the story here, and when that happens, I tend to assume that the PC's (hypothetical, by your own admission) whininess is probably exaggerated a bit. So keep in mind that I wouldn't be particularly enamored with playing under you as a DM based on what little you've described so far either.

 

[Guardsmith]

But it sounds like your PLAYERS are more into character preservation, than being bold with their characters. back to the original problem.

This is part of the problem. Because their actions in past games have led to character death, they are extremely cautions. They do everything possible to make sure that they aren't snuck up upon, ambushed, surprised, etc. Nothing bad can ever happen to their characters without them griping.

Oh, and they'll only go into combat if everyone is at full HP.