Save My Game

[gizmo33]

Certainly, but think of it this way... If a terrorist squad is threatening a city with a nuclear bomb, and you are the FBI/CIA/SWAT action heroes, it's the police who are coming to you to take these guys out, not the other way around. The local police simply aren't trained or equipped to take care of that magnitude of threat.

Great, and if that's the role that the PCs play in the city, if they really are the elite law enforcement then I think it does make sense - though I suspect if a SWAT team trying to take out a nuclear bomb threat were to request a police barricade around the area then they wouldn't be put in a lunatic asylum. In fact, I bet you SWAT would get whatever it asked for in that situation. Also, a typical SWAT team would far exceed the average party in number of people. Asking four people to save your city from destruction ("let us know when you're done and make sure we get 10% of the loot") is crazy (outside of a superhero mileiu I suppose).

If, on the other hand, the city is putting it's survival in the hands of a bunch of drifters with weapons, then that city has problem.

Likewise for D&D town guards vs. a BBEG armed with an Evil Artifact. Town guards might give all the help they can, but they will admittedly be out of their league and looking to the PCs to do the dirty work.

The response in this thread has been "if the town guards help then the adventure will be too easy." So this doesn't seem to me to be a case of the town guards being truly out-classed, but simply that the DM doesn't not take into account the actions of NPCs other than the BBEG in designing the scenario. It's the BBEG that's in danger of being outclassed.

 

[gizmo33]

OTOH, if the players' response to any sort of trouble is "we call the police and let them sort it out," they have only themselves to blame when their game is boring as all hell.

This is no different from the DM constantly putting a canyon in the adventure with some tricky bridge only to be simply thwarted by a 3rd level fly spell. At some point the DM has to take into account the resources at the PCs disposal, not assume that thrill-seeking PCs will simply ignore help - especially when they're in a "public interest" type scenario. We're not talking about treasure hunters who are operating in gray areas of the law (and perhaps ducking tax collectors). We're talking about PCs who are trying to help people who apparently have little interest in helping themselves. It's not the players fault if their use of resources makes the game boring.

 

[Skyscraper]

A problem between two persons (or two groups of persons, more generally) is almost never the fault of a single one of them, usually both parties have some issues. Perhaps the players should change some of their attitudes, but barring any input from them, let's see how you could change your own ways.

1) you indicate in one of your replies that there have been some PC deaths lately. Why? Have there been many? If so, healing up and getting help appear like intelligent responses by the PCs. Perhaps you need to revisit the EL and difficulty level of your encounters since they might be too hard on a regular basis.

2) you appear to disqualify your PCs ideas as non-heroic. Perhaps they just find these ideas crafty. You should probably accept their solutions on a regular basis, although you can refuse them in-game in any way similar to the ones suggested above when it's important to do so (e.g. have the guards dismiss the PCs as non-credible, or send a sergeant (3rd level warrior) with 3 guards (1st level warrior) that are morons that get in the way all the time, make noise, talk loudly, piss in their pants from fear, call for help, die horribly putting the fault on the PCs with their dying breath, etc...) But, overall, when they find crafty ways of circumventing the hurdles you thrown at them that you had not anticipated, roll with the blow and kuddos to them.

Sky

 

[Zendragon]

Don't put the BBEG in the city. Put it far outside the city in a long lost temple. Once the PC's find it , they won't have time to travel back. They will have to deal with it right then.

 

[XO]

Most DMs Forget...

...a very nifty passage of the DMG which quite specifically detaisl the fact that D&D is NOT Diablo, nor Doom, nor Lara Croft...

It is NOT and NEVER SHOULD BE a fully scripted railroad (carefully scripted? Yes! Fully? No!).

And the exncounters will NOT always be fully balanced or matched against the players, particularly AFTER they try their best to make sure things will go THEIR way...

MANY encounters chould be sub-par for a powerful party.

And as a rule, if the adventurers really throw you for a loop and turn it into a "we can outwit the DM" contest, do this instead: they get the wach, the militia and the temples to pitch in. Make sure the representatives of order and power-centers duely survive, since THEY will collect all the good stuff at the end of the pitched battle, and gracefulyl reward the brave adventurers with:

a) a 50 or 500 GP reward
b) free healing spells of 4th level or less for a year
c) a yearly stipend or pension of 10 or 15 gp a month for services rendered

Meanwhile, every time they are in town, make sure they are well aware of the Bishop's Rod of Metamagic, and the mayor's sword of flailing decapitation (no such thing ; just invented it). The militia captain's marriage to the duke's daughter and the construction of his mansion with the proceeds garnished from the coffers of the evil cult.

Make it suck, and rub their noses in it! Time and again...

 

[XO]

Adventures / Extra

For example, if your adventure (commercial module or otherwise) expects the players to walk through a conspicuously open door, and they instead decide to grapple-hook the top of the fortification walls, and then proceed to take on every single encounter "backwards", do you moan or do you go with it?

Bottom line: I did that (quite unwittingly) to a DM once. My suggestion had us tackle the entire complex backwards (from the A series). It had a flamethrower. Of course, it wasn't about to do much to us when we attacked it from he rear.

We had a GREAT time! We had wonderful laughs! The DM went along for the ride!

We sometimes fixate too much on what we would like the adventure to be (trying to satisfy our sense of drama) and what it becomes.

Last night, a death scene with last words had one player saying "So is he dead yet so we can move on?" To each his own...

 

[Insight]

Quite frankly to me it sounds like you are running the wrong type of game for your players.

<snip>

Think outside the normal convention. And if all you get are whining and excuses then do what a reasonable person does. Throw in the towel and find a new group because these folks might not be your ideal style players. Threaten them with the lack of a game and they might come around - but be prepared to lose it yourself. There is always World of Warcraft or D&D Online. Who needs players anymore anyway...

QFT. Not every game (or DM) is for every player. You need to either run the sort of game these players enjoy or, failing that, find a new group. Or have someone else DM for a while (if that's even a possibility - in my experience, whiny players make TERRIBLE DMs.)

Don't be afraid to cut the cord. Being miserable in your game is no way to spend your Saturday afternoons (or whenever you play). And don't be afraid to let the players know how you feel. Maybe they have some suggestions. Or at the very least, give them another opportunity to whine (j/k).

 

[Herobizkit]

You know, there's always the possibility that the players believe that any risk the DM offers is not worth the reward. So, when the PC's traipse off and do battle, only to die repeatedly, they start to wonder "Why bother?"

If one recalls, back in AD&D 1st edition, the DM recommended that a party of PCs average out to nine characters including followers and henchmen. Have the PC's reached a level where they can attract followers? And what's so wrong about hiring extra muscle? I'd do it if I felt I couldn't handle a situation in-game.

Now, if the DM constantly thwarts all of MY plans to tackle the BBEG, I'd get frustrated too. Combine that with my penchant for dying every time I try, that leads me to believe there's something amiss with the DM encounters, or how the players and I work together as a group. The DM needs to take into account the abilities of his players, and the players need to take responsibility for their abilities and/or lack thereof.

Personally, if the players never bite on a hook, why not create an NPC group of heroes that come in and sweep up FOR them?

Example: "Your snide comment to the guards sets them off, and they escort you from te building. Determined to be proven right, you retire to the Inn/leave the city and wait for the inevitable doom. But it doesn't happen.

Later that night, you learn that the city is celebrating as an apparent group of heroes were able to stop the villain from completing his ritual, and they have agreed to remove the Evil Artifact from the area. The mayor has rewarded them handsomely and the city folk are celebrating in the town square. What do you do?"

The sting comes when they learn about these heroes and find out that they're no better or different than the PCs. Now, the trick is to use the SAME group of NPCs every time the PCs balk at a quest; If the PCs ask the NPC party for help, they offer to let them "tag along" for a NPC-sized share of the loot and XP! "We could always use a pair of hands to hold a spear, but we cannot guarantee your safety..."

Of course, if it's just that they always want to win, maybe they're just looking for a beer n pretzels kind of game. Run some pre-made modules and don't worry too much about your campaign world, or step down as DM and offer one of the others to run a game. Maybe they'll teach you something about what kind of game they enjoy.

 

[Retreater]

The group I DMed for had a similar problem. I think the term for our problem was "turtling." Like a turtle, the group would retreat in its shell (a safehouse) and wait for the trouble to pass. In another module, the village was raided by orcs and its temple was looted, with a powerful holy relic stolen. The adventurers decided to not pursue the orcs (as the module assumed) and decided instead to stay behind to help rebuild damaged buildings and chicken coops.

I didn't know what the problem was. Why would the group resort to non-heroics in a game that rewards action (not only with XP and treasure but also with a fun experience)? Why did the group quit modules in midstream, fleeing the towns that desperately needed their help? Were my players to blame?

Here's what I've come to realize after a couple of years of incredible frustration. It was the level of challenges I was throwing against the party. I enjoyed running knock down, drag out fights, and it scared the players. The players were so fearful for the survivability of their characters that they decided to not act at all. It was frustrating for me and no fun for the players either.

So what I decided to do was to power-down the modules for a change to give the players (and their characters) a more than reasonable chance of succeeding. How I did it was to directly base the challenges off the abilities of the party. If I knew the fighter was +5 to hit, then I had most mooks with an AC of 13 (so the fighter could hit on a roll of 8 or higher - a 60% chance of hitting); I'd make sure the villains' ACs across the board were suitably low to allow most every party member to contribute at least 75% of the time. I dropped ACs, saves, hit points, damage, spell capacity of all baddies and gave the players a chance to revel in their own heroics.

Running weakened combats was much more fun for me than running none at all (because the players avoided all of them before). After a couple months of this, I can throw in the occassional tough fight (the kind I like), and the party doesn't run away, but they deal with it.

So ask yourself if the reason the party is asking for backup and feels they need to have full hp - is that because you've presented situations in the past that the group feels is too powerful? If so, consider bumping down the challenges for a bit. Definitely tell the group out of character that you realize the encounters have been a little difficult, but that their characters are properly equipped and powerful enough to deal with the menace. Give them a pep talk. Be their coach at half time; they're down a few points, but can rally to win.

Now with your current situation, here's my advice. Have the guard captain respond realistically, whatever you think is realistic in your setting. Does he have some high level guards (or is he, himself, high level)? What about high priests or retired adventurers in the town? If you've built your town according to the DMG guidelines, you should be able to pull a few helpers out of your DM hat of tricks. Let them confront the big bad guy. Give the party a few low level mooks to take out (or perhaps having to pilfer the artifact while the BBEG is distracted in combat). Let them take a course of action that suits their interests and gives them the sense that even though their characters aren's the most powerful in the world, they can do something positive. Then I'd try to make future encounters easier as I described above.

Retreater

 

[sniffles]

Retreater makes some really good suggestions.

Another thing you could try, Guardsmith, is giving the players some suggestions of things to do during encounters. I know this is difficult when you're trying to run the monsters or NPCs, but if you see that the players are feeling overwhelmed or frustrated you could offer them some ideas that will help them succeed. Eventually they should be able to think of these tactics themselves.

But you'll have to be carefully that you don't give them too much help or they may come to rely too much on your input.