Save My Game

[FireLance]

Stop running games in cities, or any other place where the players might expect to find help easily.

If your players are acting too cowardly, they may have been conditioned by previous DMs who routinely sent their PCs against fights that they will not be able to win without taking extraordinary precautions like getting plenty of backup. It's a valid playstyle, but it's obviously not the one that you want to encourage. To get them to act more heroically, you will have to break that conditioning and build up their confidence by routinely sending their PCs against fights that they will likely be able to defeat by themselves.

A more extreme solution is to have a "no character death" policy. Some DMs may recoil at the idea, and/or find it unrealistic, and/or that it messes with their suspension of disbelief, but if you remove character death as a consequence for failure, your players may be willing to take more risks.

 

[Desdichado]

A more extreme solution is to have a "no character death" policy. Some DMs may recoil at the idea, and/or find it unrealistic, and/or that it messes with their suspension of disbelief, but if you remove character death as a consequence for failure, your players may be willing to take more risks.

Yeah--except how exactly are they risks in this case, then?

 

[Stormborn]

If they say "We'll we will see who is right" its fine. Someone still has to go deal with the BBEG and if he succeeds dont let the city be destroyed, let and army of devils come through and conquer it and then let them deal with that.

It seems like you best solution is to start a new campaign and define the parameters of the PC behavior up front. Ask them what kind of games they want to play and what kind of characters they want to play and how their PCs will react to certain Situations. Then define a campaign in a narrow way that will enable both them and you to have fun running and playing in the game. Remove from them the opportunity to be less than heroic by placing them in situations where they either have no recourse for aid or are the obvious solutions to the problems.

Have them be hand selected champions who are to go from town to town on a mission to find and destroy demonic/abberation taint while finding the gates that area allowing the Hordes into the material realm/surface. Have them be mercenaries hired by a rich artificer to recover pieces of a suit of armor stolen from his Grandfather by the man's 7 apprentices. Have them be the crew of a pirate or exploritory ship. Give them free Knowledge and Craft skills and have them be a field team sent out by a university to explore and recover artifacts.

I had a player once who hated Modern games becuase he, the player, was so utterly lawful that his solution to everything was "the cops should handle it" or "the army should handle it" or something to that effect. However, when I specifically told the players to make PCs who had a specific patron and were involved in the blackmarket art and atiquities trade he was fine and had fun in a modern game. He hates the glorification of criminals and could never play a violent offender but could play a slightly corrupt art dealer. He couldnt go to the cops whens omething was stolen becuase of his own activites. I had removed the availability of outside aid and forced the PCs to deal with it themselves.

Always remember, in a story the author can have the characters do whatever he or she wants. The GM cant. Therefore you have to spend more time preparing a situation in which the PCs choices are simulataneously limited to those you can account for and yet let them feel they are free to choose within the confines of the charactes and world that has been described. And always know that somewhere along the way someone will do something screwy.

 

[Torment]

As far as the help goes. I make sure to never reveal the level of power of my NPC. For all they know, the help they get is a level 20 fighter, or a level 1 warrior.

For example in my campaign right now, they were trying to hire some sailors for their ship.

Here's what they found.

- A Level 4 fighter (a big muscly burly guy)
- a level 3 bard (a little agile fellow that was working the rigging on another ship)
- a level 1 commoner. (hahaha, and they think she's all powerful. hahahahaha, man wait til theres some sort of battle. )

I am somewhat hoping that they manage to keep the commoner alive long enough to level up. That would be a good time. She could eventually become A FEARED LEVEL 20 COMMONER
(actually she'll more than likely multi-class into whatever class the person that interacts the most with her is... til now, it seems it's going to be rogue... so i guess we'll see)

Anyway, my campaigns are super duper open ended, i have all sorts of hooks here and there, and for the most part, i am pretty good winging stuff (except for names, gawd i suck at getting names on the fly, i need a sheet of names otherwise everyone is named Bob, Jim, Frank, Jeff, Julie... whatever). So yeah, i have no problem with the players solving whatever problem i throw at them in whichever way.

 

[FireLance]

Yeah--except how exactly are they risks in this case, then?

The PCs might still lose. They won't be dead, but they will still have failed.

 

[LrdApoc]

Quite frankly to me it sounds like you are running the wrong type of game for your players.

So they don't want to risk, are to hesitant or something like that to face the BBEG, then they should not face the BBEG. Aren't there trade disputes and farming contracts someone could help mediate. If they don't want to be heroic don't expect them to be. Run a game that more suits their proclivities. It sounds like they have been shocked into this state - they are too attached to characters - so like someone suggested - have a no death policy - you can still challenge them even without imposing a fear of death - there is always maiming and cruelty that falls short of death. If they are invested in characters then make the characters suffer in other ways to motivate them - endanger loved ones, possessions, etc. Even with the knowledge they won;t die they can become active because they lose their +3 holy sword of butt kicking, or Aunt Erma is going to be run over by Helloxen.

Think outside the normal convention. And if all you get are whining and excuses then do what a reasonable person does. Throw in the towel and find a new group because these folks might not be your ideal style players. Threaten them with the lack of a game and they might come around - but be prepared to lose it yourself. There is always World of Warcraft or D&D Online. Who needs players anymore anyway...

 

[sniffles]

Stop running games in cities, or any other place where the players might expect to find help easily.

If your players are acting too cowardly, they may have been conditioned by previous DMs who routinely sent their PCs against fights that they will not be able to win without taking extraordinary precautions like getting plenty of backup. It's a valid playstyle, but it's obviously not the one that you want to encourage. To get them to act more heroically, you will have to break that conditioning and build up their confidence by routinely sending their PCs against fights that they will likely be able to defeat by themselves.

A more extreme solution is to have a "no character death" policy. Some DMs may recoil at the idea, and/or find it unrealistic, and/or that it messes with their suspension of disbelief, but if you remove character death as a consequence for failure, your players may be willing to take more risks.

I think FireLance's suggestions are the best for this situation. Many of the other posters appear to be of the opinion that players who want to keep their characters alive are somehow "doing it wrong". But as FireLance points out, this is a perfectly valid play style.

My only issue with his comments is that he refers to the players as cowardly, which is not accurate in my opinion. The players are not cowardly; they are attached to their characters and want to see them grow and develop over a long period of time.

I regularly play in campaigns in which character death is either extremely unlikely or not an option. But lack of character death has not in any way removed suspense, excitement or challenge from our games. We regularly come very close to death, and that's just as nerve-wracking as death would be.

The advantage to no character death is that you get the excitement of the game without the accompanying depression of losing a character and failing to satisfy all your character advancement and roleplaying goals. I suspect this may be what is making Guardsmith's players so cautions. They have plans for their characters and they don't want to see those plans ruined. But it would be useful for Guardsmith to discuss those goals with the players and find out for sure what it is that they want. Discussing the situation with them may even make them realize that they're willing to try something different.

I'd also say to Guardsmith: don't assume that you know how your players will react to some of the suggested options. Try something different and see what they do.

 

[FireLance]

My only issue with his comments is that he refers to the players as cowardly, which is not accurate in my opinion. The players are not cowardly; they are attached to their characters and want to see them grow and develop over a long period of time.

Oops, my prejudices are showing. Slip of the preferred game style there. My bad.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, is the BBEG alone in the temple?

Or, are their hordes of associated clergy, temple guards, etc.?

Because, if there are, it seems like a fantastic point to have the guards come along, engage the servitors, while the PCs face off with the BBEG.

The townguards-vs-templeguards combat happens "off-screen," the PCs get rewarded for intelligent play, and you still have a solo-PCs vs. BBEG encounter.

Wins all around!

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Everyone has good suggestions, but my players will counter them.

If the guards call them crazy, they say "Well, we'll wait and see who is right."

If I send only two low level watchmen with them, they b*tch that they are only getting two low level guys and demand more help.

If conscripted, they say, "But we don't want to join the City Watch."

Obviously, I'm hypothosizing their reactions, but it is based on previous experience with these players. They want the help and they don't understand why they can't get it.

They sound pretty whiny and helpless. Kill them and take their stuff.

But seriously, if they're expecting other people to solve their problems for them, perhaps they shouldn't be adventurers. I hear the cobblers' guild is recruiting Junior Shoelace Technicians for 1 sp a day.

If some players of mine got some help from the town guard in the form of a couple of low-level watchmen, and then turn around and whine about it being too little, it had better be in character so that I can tell them, as the watch captain, where they can stick it. I would give them the speech that K gives to J in "Men In Black" about how there's always some evil cult trying to end the world, some hideous monster living in the sewers, a troupe of goblin sappers about to collapse the castle walls, or some other crazy menace, and that there are limited resources and time to devote to each crisis. Two low level watchmen is what they've managed to scrape up, and if they don't want to see everything go to hell in a handbasket, they'd better pull up their socks and get out there like a bunch of adventurers and save the friggin' day already. Otherwise, step aside and let a more heroic band of crazies do it.

Mr. Watch Captain could let this group of unlicensed vigilantes take his men off on what is apparently a dangerous mission, or he could go down to the local tavern and say out loud, "Oh no! Someone is about to release a demon in the middle of town. Will no one save us from this gruesome fate," and ten or twelve heavily armed individuals will immediately stand up and say, "Hot damn! XPs and phat lewt! Where da demons at, mang?"

Being a Player Character means that you solve the problems yourself. Problems will continue to throw themselves in your path, so you'd better get good at solving them. If you can't handle it, go home and be an NPC.