saving feats when you level???

[MerakSpielman]

Not a very mature attitude to be promoting, Merak; I'm surprised to hear it from you.

Consider me chastened.

This discussion was just bugging me.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have yet to see a concrete example of how allowing players to pick feats before they qualify for them would create unbalance. And even if you can come up with some strange corner case unbalanced scenario, IMHO, the idea that a player is able to delay gratification and plan ahead are more important in the big picture.

You create a character.

He wants Weapon Focus, but is not sure what magic weapons he will find in the future.

So, the DM allows him to wait to purchase the feat.

It ends up that he never finds a magic weapon that he likes and he instead takes a totally different feat. He was planning for one thing and ended up doing something totally different.

Or, he finds a magic weapon he likes and takes Weapon Focus for it. How is this different than designing a high level character without the trials and tribulations of actually going up levels?

Not only does changing this rule allow some prestige classes to be taken at earlier levels, but it also a metagaming type of rule (i.e. a rule that designed to affect rules, not to make logical sense of what would happen in the situation).

This is like saying: Your Wizard comes to the city. The Wizards Guild there is willing to train you on a second level spell.

The Wizard says "I'm not sure which second level spell I want, I will just put a generic second level spell in my book and later on when adventuring, I will decide which spell I really want once I see what kind of monsters we are encountering."

The DM says: "Ok.".



This type of house rule removes game cause and effect. You should gain ALL of your level abilities when you make the level, not before and not after.

This concept is the opposite of planning. Instead of planning, the character has the option to not plan at all and wait to see what happens before making a decision. Kind of like buying a stock retroactively for the old price once you know it has gone up in value.

In game, the Fighter should proactively be trying to find or buy a masterwork or magical battle axe BECAUSE he took Weapon Focus Battle Axe. He should not be doing a WalMart shopping spree at each treasure trove and magic shop until he finds just the perfect magic weapon and THEN take Weapon Focus for that weapon with a feat from an earlier level.

 

[Dimwhit]

You create a character.

He wants Weapon Focus, but is not sure what magic weapons he will find in the future.

So, the DM allows him to wait to purchase the feat.

It ends up that he never finds a magic weapon that he likes and he instead takes a totally different feat. He was planning for one thing and ended up doing something totally different.

Or, he finds a magic weapon he likes and takes Weapon Focus for it. How is this different than designing a high level character without the trials and tribulations of actually going up levels?

Not only does changing this rule allow some prestige classes to be taken at earlier levels, but it also a metagaming type of rule (i.e. a rule that designed to affect rules, not to make logical sense of what would happen in the situation).

This is like saying: Your Wizard comes to the city. The Wizards Guild there is willing to train you on a second level spell.

The Wizard says "I'm not sure I which second level spell I want, I will just put a generic second level spell in my book and later on when adventuring, I will decide which spell I really want once I see what kind of monsters we are encountering."

The DM says: "Ok.".



This type of house rule removes game cause and effect. You should gain ALL of your level abilities when you make the level, not before and not after.

This concept is the opposite of planning. Instead of planning, the character has the option to not plan at all and wait to see what happens before making a decision. Kind of like buying a stock retroactively for the old price once you know it has gone up in value.
In game, the Fighter should proactively be trying to find or buy a masterwork or magical battle axe BECAUSE he took Weapon Focus Battle Axe. He should not be doing a WalMart shopping spree at each treasure trove and magic shop until he finds just the perfect magic weapon and THEN take Weapon Focus for that weapon with a feat from an earlier level.

Very well explained. Feats/Skills/etc can't be saved for a reason. And you pretty much summed up that reason very well.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Make a Will Save."
"Uh... plus seven, that's... 19?"
"Oops. Missed by 1. You feel a strange..."
"Wait! That feat I haven't taken yet? Iron Will!"

-Hyp.

 

[ChaosMage]

It's a problem to just let the character wait to use the feat, but I have no problem with allowing someone to take a feat they don't have the prerequisits for so long as they don't use it until they do qualify for it- though I think the Weapon Finesse example is the only one I've seen actually come up in play.
Are there any prestige classes out there whose qualifying level is based on feats? Most seem to have skills, BAB, spellcasting, or even base saves as a limiting factor instead.

 

[Scion]

The problem of delaying for one feat yet gaining another is easily fixed by the dm. The example above about weapon finese and them changing their mind later shouldnt happen even given said delay. They pick a feat that they way, if they are very close to the prereq's (say, within a level or two) then they get the feat but without access. Throw in some roleplaying (paying for training, having to spend extra time just trying to use it in such a fasion, etc) and there you go. Everyone is happy, there are few cases where it would be an incredible problem, and it makes life so much simpler

I have let people do this for awhile now, even with skill points. One character really wanted to use his skills to become very good at several crafts, but was unable to get training for a couple of levels due to other difficulties. I let him save his points and feat. When he got to town he had to spend a few months in intensive training, used up some gp, made some friends, and then moved on with his life happy that his character was the way he wanted it to be. No problems

 

[Hypersmurf]

Are there any prestige classes out there whose qualifying level is based on feats? Most seem to have skills, BAB, spellcasting, or even base saves as a limiting factor instead.

I'd need to go looking for Prestige Classes, but there are a couple of other examples.

It's impossible to get the Whirlwind Attack feat before level 5. Spring Attack has a +4 BAB prerequisite, and there's no way to take two feats at 4th level.

But if you allow someone to save feats, they can be Whirlwinding at 4th instead of 5th (or even 6th, if you don't multiclass).

It's impossible (in 3.5) to get an Improved Familiar like a Pseudodragon, Imp, Formian Worker, Quasit, or Mephit before level 9 (without some PrC that grants a general feat as a low-level ability, at any rate - I can't think of any off-hand). But if you allow someone to save feats, they can do it at level 7.

-Hyp.

 

[anon]

Karinsdad,

You responded mostly to issues of your own creation.

I don't think anyone suggested that one could simply say 'I reserve my choice until it's convenient', but rather, that the specific feat choice could be made in advance of it being qualified for.

In your example of Weapon Focus, the player/character would say "I am really dedicated to the scimitar. I am going to spend my free time focusing myself on using it more effectively." A level later when they fully qualify for Weapon Focus it is applied to the scimitar.

As for the much repeated PrC abuse issue, I have yet to see one specific example of this, much less a series of examples that might lead me to agree that this 'house rule' is broken.

On the other side you fail completely to acknowledge the level, or more, of absolutely no benefit from choosing a feat that one can't even use. IMO, if a player is willing to sacrifice a feat's benefit for a level or two they ought not be stopped, but encouraged for their planning.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In your example of Weapon Focus, the player/character would say "I am really dedicated to the scimitar. I am going to spend my free time focusing myself on using it more effectively." A level later when they fully qualify for Weapon Focus it is applied to the scimitar.

That still means you have a level 2 druid with Weapon Focus in scimitar, when normally a druid would not be able to benefit from Weapon Focus until level 3.

-Hyp.

 

[Taelorn76]

hearing these arguments makes me think that mabey the character should not get the feat until they have had time to train or study in it.
ie.
You and your group just mopped up a small band of orcs, DM gives out XP, and you level up to 3rd lvl you take the feat Weapon Finesse, should you imediatly become more proficiant with a particular weapon (in the middle of the woods). Or should you only get the bonuses when you have had down time to train?

More than just a few hours or a days worth of training.