D&D (2024) Saving Thow importance changed. Strength is now a valuable save

[ECMO3]

Based on my 1st two 2024 games, the new landscape has changed how important certain saving throws are.

In 5E the saves were in two distinct tiers

Wisdom, Dex and Constitution were tier 1 (best to worst)*

Charisma, Intelligence, Strength were tier 2

The difference between Constitution and Charisma though is far greater than the difference between Con and Wisdom or Charisma and STR.

In 2024 though the weapon mastery and unarmed strike rules have made Dexterity OR Strength saves pretty important, and has also elevated Constitution above Wisdom. Now I think it is less clear cut and the combo you have matters, not just the individual saves.

If you have Strength proficiency then Constitution is probably the most important save from tier 1.

If you do not have Strength proficiency then Dexterity is the most important save to have from tier 1.

If you do not have Dexterity then Strength is the strongest in tier 2 and probably more valuable than Wisdom, but less important than Constitution.

I think Rangers get the weakest saves in 2024 because Dex and Strength are often redundant and these are the two they get.

I think Fighters and Barbarians now have the strongest saves overall instead of Warlocks and Clerics.*

* Note in this I am considering all levels 1-20. If you are only looking at low level Wisdom is probably not as important as Dex or Con.

 

[pukunui]

If you add in the fact that PCs will be making fewer Str saves to avoid being pushed or knocked prone, how does that affect your rating?

 

[ECMO3]

If you add in the fact that PCs will be making fewer Str saves to avoid being pushed or knocked prone, how does that affect your rating?

I don't think they will be making fewer strength saves, I think they will be making more unless they are proficient in Dex.

They will be making less Athletics checks though, which makes Athletics a lot less important.

Athletics went from being pretty much the second most important skill to being below average. Strength as an ability is about the same as it was before, one of the less important stats (probably 5th out of 6) when looking at it independent of class.

 

[Charlaquin]

If you add in the fact that PCs will be making fewer Str saves to avoid being pushed or knocked prone, how does that affect your rating?

Will they? There will be fewer push and knockdown effects triggered on a hit with an attack that are also resisted with a save, but the push and grapple options of Unarmed Strike will mean every enemy can force a save to avoid a push, knockdown, or grab.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

There's very few spells with Str saves (like, Entangle is the most encountered).
There are no weapon masteries that call for Str saves.
Monsters seem to no longer let you Str save to resist being knocked over / pushed back.
Most monsters do not grapple, they just apply the Grappled condition if their regular attack hits.
That leaves NPCs who choose to grapple as the sole prospect for Str saves to reliably apply to.

So it's down to whether your GM is someone who has NPCs grapple, and whether it's worth considering a save worthwhile when it only delays getting grappled, it cannot prevent it (you'd need external aids like Paladin aura + Bless, at which point you're pretty well off anyway).

Con's always been good, no arguments against that. But Str is just straight-up weaker because its main role (keeping you standing) was taken away, and that's going to make a lot of beefy character concepts embarrassed (especially Reckless Attacking Barbarians, because the only thing that matters for staying up is not getting hit).

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I think Rangers get the weakest saves in 2024 because Dex and Strength are often redundant and these are the two they get.

Now that is a good point. It's like they don't get a secondary save, because Dex already covers the one thing Str has left. Huh.

 

[pukunui]

Will they? There will be fewer push and knockdown effects triggered on a hit with an attack that are also resisted with a save, but the push and grapple options of Unarmed Strike will mean every enemy can force a save to avoid a push, knockdown, or grab.

But how often will DMs bother to have enemies push or grapple via Unarmed Strike when they can just use monsters that can push or knock prone automatically on a hit?

I reckon there will be overall fewer Str saves happening as a result but I’ll wait to see for myself.

 

[Minigiant]

In 2024 though the weapon mastery and unarmed strike rules have made Dexterity OR Strength saves pretty important, and has also elevated Constitution above Wisdom. Now I think it is less clear cut and the combo you have matters, not just the individual saves.

Monsters aren't making unarmedstrikes and they not using weapon masteries though.

If you look at the monsters in the PHB, They either grapple on a hit or is it Strength save.

The crocodile and giant crab grapple on it.
The constricted snake grapples with a strength save.

I think Rangers get the weakest saves in 2024 because Dex and Strength are often redundant and these are the two they get.

Grappling Monsters aren't grappling with unarmed strikes.

 

[ECMO3]

Monsters aren't making unarmedstrikes and they not using weapon masteries though.

Grappling Monsters aren't grappling with unarmed strikes.

The are in the 2024 games I am playing!

 

[Minigiant]

The are in the 2024 games I am playing!

The 2024 MM isn't out now, time traveller.