Saving throw question

[mwiedmann]

Setup: Let's say it is a player's turn and he moves his character across a room to attack a foe. On the way there he triggers a poison dart trap. The dart does a few hit points of damage but the character is now suffering from 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends).

Question: Does he get a saving throw at the end of this turn?

My thought: If he does and he makes the saving throw, he never had to take the ongoing damage. I thought the point of ongoing damage was that you had to take the damage at least once. The trap scenario is unique because the ongoing damage effect is put on the character during his turn and if we let him make a saving throw at the end of his turn as the rules state then the ongoing damage can be negated totally.

There are other traps that may impose dazed conditions as well. In this case it is equally confusing. Does the player's turn end as soon as his move action is done since he is now dazed?

We have a house rule that ongoing effects must be suffered at least once before a save can be made. In the poison case the player cannot save on this turn. They take the 5 poison damage at the beginning of their next turn then they can save. In the case of the dazed effect we apply the dazed effect immediately and end the player's turn after the current action. Since they suffered the effect they can then make a save.

What do you all think?

 

[Aulirophile]

Setup: Let's say it is a player's turn and he moves his character across a room to attack a foe. On the way there he triggers a poison dart trap. The dart does a few hit points of damage but the character is now suffering from 5 ongoing poison damage (save ends).

Question: Does he get a saving throw at the end of this turn?

My thought: If he does and he makes the saving throw, he never had to take the ongoing damage. I thought the point of ongoing damage was that you had to take the damage at least once. The trap scenario is unique because the ongoing damage effect is put on the character during his turn and if we let him make a saving throw at the end of his turn as the rules state then the ongoing damage can be negated totally.

There are other traps that may impose dazed conditions as well. In this case it is equally confusing. Does the player's turn end as soon as his move action is done since he is now dazed?

We have a house rule that ongoing effects must be suffered at least once before a save can be made. In the poison case the player cannot save on this turn. They take the 5 poison damage at the beginning of their next turn then they can save. In the case of the dazed effect we apply the dazed effect immediately and end the player's turn after the current action. Since they suffered the effect they can then make a save.

What do you all think?

End of Turn: At the end of your turn, you make a saving throw against each effect on you that a save can end.
Roll a d20, with one of the following results:
Lower than 10: Failure. The effect continues.
10 or higher: Success. The effect ends.

He gets the save. That houserule kind of hurts leaders who specialize in granting saves, as well. If you hit Paragon/Epic it'll be really relevant (and painful).

I know if you're slowed partway through a movement if you've already moved more then 2 squares you just stop, that is explicit. Daze doesn't actually have an explicit text like that that I can recall, and it has never come up for me in a game. I would be inclined to say that yes, his turn ends, but off hand I can't think of any clarification or FAQs on it. I'll look it up. Obviously he also gets the save for that.

 

[mwiedmann]

In the case of someone being granted a saving throw by a special power then they could shake off the effect without suffering from it. That was part of our house rule I didn't mention. I was more curious about the case with the poison dart. Seems cheesy that they skip the 5 ongoing in this case. If a leader grants them a saving throw that is different. A special ability helped them avoid the damage.

 

[CoarseDragon]

In the case of someone being granted a saving throw by a special power then they could shake off the effect without suffering from it. That was part of our house rule I didn't mention. I was more curious about the case with the poison dart. Seems cheesy that they skip the 5 ongoing in this case. If a leader grants them a saving throw that is different. A special ability helped them avoid the damage.

I would say if there is no other damage then they get the save at the end of their turn and there is no other damage. I might also add that it is not a very good trap.

 

[unan oranis]

In the case of someone being granted a saving throw by a special power then they could shake off the effect without suffering from it. That was part of our house rule I didn't mention. I was more curious about the case with the poison dart. Seems cheesy that they skip the 5 ongoing in this case. If a leader grants them a saving throw that is different. A special ability helped them avoid the damage.

I like your houserule - we do something similar.

I wouldn't change the "legal" rules though (if I could), they are probably perfect for most groups as-is.

Have you other house rules that trend toward more damage being dished out? Or is this just a one-off flavor/mechanics thing thats bugging you?

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Rather than house rule it, I would change the trap to make it have an afteraffect.

For example: Hit: x damage, + slowed until the end of the targets turn. After effect: slowed and ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends both).

 

[Squire James]

I'd add the first round of ongoing damage to the trap's damage. I would also tend toward "end of next turn" effects for the kind of effects that would not hinder a character in the middle of a turn. That way, the character wouldn't feel left out...

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, my understanding is that this is an effect that can only be triggered on the player's own turn - meaning that the first effect only works for the currency of that one turn, then the aftereffect kicks in - in other words, its specifically designed to give it the effect it would have had it occured on someone else's turn.