D&D 5E Saving throws in 5e

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I strongly disagree with this assertion, particularly because saving throws are not a 50/50, and thus their "duration mechanic" effect is wildly different. But okay.
They aren’t always a 50/50, though they can end up that way depending on the caster’s save DC and the target’s save bonus. Point is, 4e introduced the concept of making a save each turn to end an ongoing effect. 5e has that too, it’s just that the math has more variables.

Personally, I’d prefer we go back to using non-AC-defenses with saves being used exclusively as a duration mechanic, but keep the variable DCs and bonuses.
 

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I strongly disagree with this assertion, particularly because saving throws are not a 50/50, and thus their "duration mechanic" effect is wildly different. But okay.

Do as you please.
Redacted for clarity: I won't discuss it any further.
Its a fact. Structural similarity.
If you can't see it, so be it.

*we can discusss the extend of the similarity or the repercussions of the differences, of course.
 
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They aren’t always a 50/50, though they can end up that way depending on the caster’s save DC and the target’s save bonus. Point is, 4e introduced the concept of making a save each turn to end an ongoing effect. 5e has that too, it’s just that the math has more variables.

Personally, I’d prefer we go back to using non-AC-defenses with saves being used exclusively as a duration mechanic, but keep the variable DCs and bonuses.

I could also see how this could work.
Probably allone time effects: save or suck/die/damage working vs static defense, which is a bit higher than the average succes rate for saving throws.

Lesser effects that should usually stick for a few rounds could work with saving throws that have a slightly lower succes rate.
 

Ondath

Adventurer
<scrubbed the bits relating to deleted posts>

When it comes to the thread's main question, this is something I think about every now and then. I think one of bounded accuracy's failures (despite my overt love for it in many other areas) is that at some point, saves with which you're not proficient become impossible to make. You don't even need to be level 15+ (where the game isn't even properly balanced anyway) to see this problem: Even the Mind Flayer's DC 15 Intelligence save can be really unfun for someone who dumped INT (-1 modifier and no save proficiency) and has to spend the rest of the combat hoping to roll a 16 or higher just to get to play again (that's a 25% chance just to be allowed to play your character for the whole encounter!).

That said, I do like the design approach of unifying all rolls into the same template, and saves being tied to ability scores achieves that. If anything, I think the designers should've separated more saves from the classic three of Dex/Con/Wis since some of the saves should've been something else but got stuck with the big three because they used to be Ref/Fort/Will saves (Dominate Person clearly should've been a Cha save, for instance).

I don't think the problem is necessarily is due to the ability scores being divided to six saves. To me, it looks more like a scaling problem. Perhaps giving half-proficiency to all non-proficient saves would be one way to alleviate the problem? It's something I've considered but decided not to implement.
 
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Would making all classes proficient in all saves actually keep up with the usual DCs for each level for non-primary abilities, or would it just mean that they fall behind slower?
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Would making all classes proficient in all saves actually keep up with the usual DCs for each level for non-primary abilities, or would it just mean that they fall behind slower?
You would come close to keeping pace.

Primary save DC vs. primary save proficiency should mostly keep pace. Truly powerful save DCs will still be harder, of course.
Primary save DC vs. secondary (lower ability modifier) would fall behind, but not nearly as much as without granting save proficiencies.

But, yes, IMO the easiest thing is to grant proficiency in all saves.
The easiest solution is to give all creatures proficiency in all saves. Creatures who "had proficiency" gain advantage instead.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
One thing I would like to point out which I don't recall seeing is that much of this assumes the most powerful save DCs which keep pace with the PCs. IME many times save DCs fall well below this benchmark, allowing even non-proficient saves to have a decent, if not good, chance to succeed.

For example, in tier 3 your PC might face DC 18 saves, but have a +9 or +10, but their chances jump dramatically when they face a DC 13 or 14, which is still very possible in tier 3.

Now, because PCs only have two save proficiencies normally, the reverse is also an issue. A PC without proficiency might be just +1 or +2 to their save, so against those DC 13 or 14 is not great odds, but against the DC 18 it is much worse!
 

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
a bit... I mean I mostly use the stats in the back of the MM with minor tweeks... like use the mage or druid or archmage stats and just add some kobold fluff... not like make a PC sorcerer

I keep going back and forth on getting MotM
Just to be sure you know, Monsters of the Multiverse does not update creatures/NPCs from the Monster Manual.
 


I think that there's an even easier solution to this: just let a nat 20 auto-succeed on saving throws. (and a nat 1 auto-fail)

There's a major difference in how it feels to have an impossible save DC and just an unlikely one - and there are a lot more ways to deal with an unlikely one by gaining advantage on the roll or otherwise making extra rolls. But if the save is just impossible you need a party member with bless prepared and a free slot and nothing better to do with their concentration... and even then it only hopefully gets your total high enough.

I would still make Indomitable auto-succeed a la legendary resistance, and would add a bullet to Warcaster to make a minimum damage threshold (say, your con save bonus) to even force a roll for concentration, but other than that one case I think the core problem can be solved with one common house rule (or maybe more accurately just a common misunderstanding)
 

You would come close to keeping pace.

Primary save DC vs. primary save proficiency should mostly keep pace. Truly powerful save DCs will still be harder, of course.
Primary save DC vs. secondary (lower ability modifier) would fall behind, but not nearly as much as without granting save proficiencies.

But, yes, IMO the easiest thing is to grant proficiency in all saves.

The question is: is it desired that you keep up with your lower saves...

half proficiency would be a good compromise. To Compensate, DCs could be 9 + prof bonus instead of 8 +.

I could also see 1.5 times proficiency bonus to good saves.

Maybe it would be no bad Idea to introduce half, full and 1.5 proficiency bonus as standard and give a list, when which increases...
Then calling it: no, slow, normal, fast pb progression.
I don't know if expertise is still needed.

I'd also vote for +2 to +8 as standard. +1 to + 4 as slow and +3 to +12 as fast progression.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
The question is: is it desired that you keep up with your lower saves...
Of course every one has their own response, but for me it is yes. Your proficiency will keep up because your ability scores won't

Think about this: a tier 4 caster will likely have DC 19 spell save for ALL his spells, regardless of which ability saves for those spells.

But his targets will vary. Some will have matching max ability scores, others will have 10's, even in tier 4.

For example, the caster won't use Fireball against a Rogue, but might use Maximilian’s Earthen Grasp to force a STR save. Compare the numbers:

DC 19 vs. DEX save +11 OR DC 19 vs. STR save +0. So, 65% success vs. just 10%!

Just including proficiency would make that DC 19 vs. STR save +6. Now it is 65% success vs. 40%. Obviously the Rogue will have a harder time on the STR save still, but at least experience now matters!

half proficiency would be a good compromise. To Compensate, DCs could be 9 + prof bonus instead of 8 +.

I could also see 1.5 times proficiency bonus to good saves.

Maybe it would be no bad Idea to introduce half, full and 1.5 proficiency bonus as standard and give a list, when which increases...
Then calling it: no, slow, normal, fast pb progression.
I don't know if expertise is still needed.

I'd also vote for +2 to +8 as standard. +1 to + 4 as slow and +3 to +12 as fast progression.
This gets too much into the F/R/W 3E system with poor, avg., and good saves IMO. It is too fiddly for me and doesn't offer enough impact.
 


@DND_Reborn
As I see it, saving throws in part are replacing old 3.5's rounds/caster level durations. In so far I think it is desired to have casters outscale defenses.
Against the initial save I share your concern.
So maybe just say: on intial save you add your proficiency bonus for all saves (resulting in expertise to proficient saves). As counter balance I would then just have DC = 10 + proficiency bonus + casting stat.

Would that be better?
 
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glass

(he, him)
Correct. Saving throws in 4e were purely a duration or intensification mechanic (how long will you be affected by X?/will effect X get worse?) In 5e, they determine whether an effect strikes at all.
This is not strictly accurate - saving throws were occasionally used in the first instance (for example when someone tried to push or teleport you off a cliff).

Point is, 4e introduced the concept of making a save each turn to end an ongoing effect.
No it did not, 3.5 did (or possibly 3.0 but I think it was 3.5 - certainly not 4e anyway). And 3.5 (like 5e) used the effect DC and base save, rather than a flat DC 10 and no or minimal bonuses as in 4e.

This is not open for discussion*.
Who made you the arbiter of what is "open for discussion"? (Hint: Nobody.)

_
glass.
 
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I may enjoy 5e infinitely more than I did 3.x, but I think Fort, Reflex, and Will saves were a much better solution than trying to make all 6 abilities into saves (and then not using them half the time).
Is the issue that there are six saves or is it that only half are used? If all six were used roughly equally would that be okay?
 

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