Say if I'm a paladin can I get a demon cohort?

[Aaron L]

It isnt like youre dealing with a free willed mortal being who has had a hard life and gone bad. Its a frigging Demon, born in the fires of the Abyss, made from the darkness of the universe, pure essence of Evil. The ultimate manifestation of Chaotic Evil incarnate. There is no good in it. There shouldn't be any chance of it "changing its mind" about being Evil. It is Evil. It's made out of Evil.

Convincing a Fire Elemental to become a Water Elemental is a good analogy.


You destroy the damn thing. If there was a spell to forcibly cause a Demon to become good, then yeah thats a Good spell.


Those ultra rare instances where Demons or Angels do change sides are so rare as to be legendary, almost unique events of cosmic magnitude. The gods themselves should stand up and take notice of that happening.

If it happened in game over a few session or something (or even the course of a campaign, this is something that should take eons to happen) it would so drastically cheapen it as to make it trite.

 

[Dykstrav]

I tend to side with the fire elemental analogy. Having the Evil subtype is similar to having (for example) the Elf or Fire subtype. Can an elf decide that it doesn't want to be an elf any more? Can fire elementals decide that they don't want to be composed of flames?

If we check out page 313 of our Monster Manuals, we see that an outsider; "...is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the material plane." This would seem to indicate that an outsider is as strongly composed of the alignment component of its native plane as an elemental is composed of its element.

Even is WotC wants to have paladins who happen to be demons, it's no less silly and illogical for being 'official.' Euledicia is probably the single most counterlogical/counterintutive thing I've ever seen come from the company.

 

[Starglim]

Certainly, as long as it's a demon of Lawful Good alignment. The code of conduct is a moral stricture, not a spell effect, so the [Evil] and [Chaotic] subtypes don't enter into it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

They're just smart enough to realize that there are people who want it both ways.

As long as there have been Evil and Good, there have been Fallen Angels and Redeemed Devils, and people like the archetype. It's not a bad archetype. You can get some real juice out of it once or twice.

In D&D, throughout the editions, "always" hasn't meant "always". Just that exceptions are exceptional, rare, unique things. They happen. Planescape has Unity-of-Rings (possibly a fallen celestial), A'kin (possibly a redeemed fiend), Jemorile the Exile (possibly an extremist rilmani)...just as a few examples of how outsiders are occasionally flexible. And that's not counting the outcasts like modrons or Rule-of-Three who haven't changed alignment nessecarily, but who definately aren't in-step with the rest of their plane.

And I actually defend the retianing of the [evil] subtype. Because they may feel Good, but they're *made*out*of* evil.

I mean, I'd prefer them to be rather unique and unheard-of examples, but there's plenty of history in the game of at least *possibly* reformed outsiders of many stripes. It's not how I'd prefer it always, but the motif is hardly a new one for the succubus paladin.

 

[irdeggman]

Per the RAW no.

Pg 44 PHB

"A paladin can only accept henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good."

So unless the demon is lawful and good the rules say no.

Chaotic Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the chaotic-aligned Outer Planes. Most creatures that have this subtype also have chaotic alignments; however, if their alignments change they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has a chaotic alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the chaotic subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were chaotic-aligned (see Damage Reduction, below).

Evil Subtype: A subtype usually applied only to outsiders native to the evil-aligned Outer Planes. Evil outsiders are also called fiends. Most creatures that have this subtype also have evil alignments; however, if their alignments change, they still retain the subtype. Any effect that depends on alignment affects a creature with this subtype as if the creature has an evil alignment, no matter what its alignment actually is. The creature also suffers effects according to its actual alignment. A creature with the evil subtype overcomes damage reduction as if its natural weapons and any weapons it wields were evil-aligned (see Damage Reduction, above).

So the succubus is always treated as both chaotic and evil when subtype comes into play, like for instance the paladin's smite evil or detect evil ability.

Also, as has been pointed out previously Diplomacy doesn't affect alignment - it only affects attitude (e.g., helpful, indifferent, etc.)

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

As always, it depends on the particular cosmology of your campaign.

If demons in your campaign are part of a cosmic, irredeemable evil, then the answer is obviously no.

If demons are fallen angels of sorts whose spark of divinity and goodness has not been irrevocably lost, then it might be possible to redeem a demon, convert her to lawful good, and have her as a cohort.

Perhaps all outsiders are also fairly malleable in spirit and attitude. Perhaps any outsider who spends too much time in the Abyss or the local equivalent becomes a demon sooner or later. And perhaps an outsider who spends enough time in the "heavenly planes" becomes good-aligned after a time. Stranger cosmologies exist.


If you are a player, ask your DM about the cosmology. If you are the DM, work out the cosmology for yourself.


By the way, why does it always have to be a redeemed succubus and not, say, a nalfeshnee? Well, as if I didn't know...

 

[smootrk]

I would allow it if the game called for it, and extraordinary events led up to it. Then again, I will do whatever rule-bending I desire to make a good game... much to the dismay of rules-lawyers everywhere.

 

[LordVyreth]

By the way, why does it always have to be a redeemed succubus and not, say, a nalfeshnee? Well, as if I didn't know...

I was just about to add that if I was running a high level game and the player wanted a fiend cohort who wasn't a succubus or erinyes, I'd allow it just because it's a refreshing change of pace.

In general, I wouldn't have much problem with a redeemed fiend. There have been plenty of fallen celestials (see, among others, the erinyes,) and while I can see the fire elemental comparison, I don't think it applies. They're not really made of evil; they're made of flesh, blood, bones, and other stuff that makes the party's rogue still useful and the fighter not regret using a rapier. Whether they have sufficient free will to make that decision is another story. I can understand why people have trouble with spells like Sanctify the Wicked, though frankly if you're willing to go that route, wouldn't it be easier to just bind them, throw a few mind fogs into the room and toss on Helms of Opposite Alignment until it sticks? It certainly beats losing a level. In terms of moral justification, I can only see it as a valid thing if the paladin or whatnot had justification to kill the fiend anyway (usually not that hard,) and offers it as a last resort to avoid destruction. After all, the last Dragon had Wee Jas turning a succubus lawful evil, and that's as much an anathema to them as an evil/good conversion.

 

[SkidAce]

Perhaps all outsiders are also fairly malleable in spirit and attitude. Perhaps any outsider who spends too much time in the Abyss or the local equivalent becomes a demon sooner or later. And perhaps an outsider who spends enough time in the "heavenly planes" becomes good-aligned after a time. Stranger cosmologies exist.

That's the ticket.

 

[Joker]

It's interesting that people seem to feel that having fallen angels is more acceptable than having redeemed demons. I guess evil is that much more tempting than good.