Say if I'm a paladin can I get a demon cohort?

[IcyCool]

Between that, converting evil through Diplomacy, and the idea of the deathless, I wonder why one of my players wonders why I exclude the BoED...

And those Diplomacy rules only state that the evil being needs to hear you. You can go up to them, beat the snot out of them, manacle them, and then preach to them until they are converted. It's not even hard to do (read: automatic) given how the diplomacy mechanic converts.

All I have to say is, where were these rules when the Book of Vile Darkness was written?

 

[Seeten]

I vote yes.

No matter how many novels have done the "evil gone good" approach, since I havent read them, its still unique and cool in my home campaign.

Also, as no one has ever done a TWF drow ranger in my home campaign, thats also cool, and not cliche. Now, a world conquering necromancer, thats cliche. I've done it twice now.

 

[Aeric]

I think you're mixing your metaphors.

No, he's just using the same interpretation of demons that I and Goblyn share--as beings formed from the raw stuff of the Abyss, demons are chaos and evil incarnate. You could no more convince them to stop being evil than you could convince a snake to fly. You could even consider them elementals, if you acknowledge chaos and evil as elements. The rules seem to support this idea, as seen in spells targeting creatures and objects based on their alignments/aura.

 

[GwydapLlew]

And then of course there's the Sanctify the Wicked spell (aka conversion by the sword, aka Exalted mindrape), but let's try to avoid that, because as is, most paladin threads go downhill fast enough as it is.

I find the BoVD far less insulting in many regards than the BoED. I may disagree with piercings/goth/bondage = evil, but I also disagree with soul torture = good.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Except that it's not supposed to be torture, any more than using Diplomacy to convince an evil creature to see the error of its ways is supposed to be forced brainwashing or browbeating (that's what Intimidate is for). Presumably, the Sanctify the Wicked spell simply purges evil from its target's nature, causing it to see the light and become good at heart. It's not "mindrape."

The issues with this sort of thing presumably come from analogy to the real world, where changing someone's mind without his or her consent is considered... well, evil. But the real world doesn't feature Good and Evil as abstractions. It's a reflexivity problem; that which is done for Good ends using Good in D&D must be good (small "g"). There is, for example, no way by the alignment standards of D&D to say that a choice between Good and Evil is better than an enforcement of Good. It would be like saying (to use a pretty silly analogy, but I can't think of anything better right now) that a choice between charity work and child molestation is a good idea.

 

[Sejs]

General - Say if I'm a paladin can I get a demon cohort?

As long as they're not evil, sure.

Nothing about the race says you can't - it's all alignment.

If you want to go all Eadric and redeem a succubus, then yes, you can hang out with her.

 

[ephemeron]

A subplot in which a demon poses as a paladin's ally to corrupt him could be interesting, if the player likes the idea, but the RAW make it hard to pull off. Sooner or later, the paladin's detect evil ability should see through the act.

 

[Tinker Gnome]

Seriously. How is THAT a [Good] spell? "I want you to be good, so I'll dispense with the formality of offering you a choice in the matter and go straight to bending the essence of your being to my whim."

It is so good it is effectively evil! Like the Kingpriest was in Dragonlance!

 

[Sejs]

Seriously. How is THAT a [Good] spell? "I want you to be good, so I'll dispense with the formality of offering you a choice in the matter and go straight to bending the essence of your being to my whim."

The other choice being "Or I'll just kill you and obliterate your essence so you can never be brought back to life, you evil thing you" ?

Looking kinda rock and a hard place, Tib. Look at it like this:

You're a good guy. Joe Good. Good as they come. You are faced with radiant evil. You go up to 'em and say "Hey, Mr Evil - give peace a chance. How about you convert over to the light and play nice. C'mon, it's fun".

If he says no, what do you do? Respect his opinion and leave him to go about his merry way?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Cohort?

Not unless he's been made not-evil somehow.

Unwilling Geas-bound slave?

Sure.