Say NO to 3.5

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I hope 3.5 sells well. I guess it comes down to the fact that if D&D can't make money people will stop producing good material. Now I understand that good is subjective to opinion. But the fact that publishers need to make money if we want them to continue to make things is not.

Furthermore, every change I've read I tend to like (though if I had to choose something that I wasn't sure on it would be pokemon paladins).

But if you're trying to send a message to WotC saying "We don't want to buy your junk" you may not be happy with the end results.
 

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Nearly every single thing Monte said in that review, we already knew. It was a bit of new information, but NOTHING like the multitude we got here on the boards when people picked up the books and other reviewers got a hold of them. Now...wait a second, why does Monte's opinion suddenly make it a good reason to say 'I won't buy the books!!', when we already knew this stuff? Just hearing Monte say it makes the Revision bad? Don't get me wrong, I like Monte's work and all, and I can't wait for AU...but people, he barely told us anything new, and we've got a lot claiming they now won't buy the Revision.

Yep, I agree completely. There was very little substance there, although his thoughts were interesting on their own merit and for what they implied. I respect Monte, although I don't agree with many of his concerns or problems with 3.5. However, I find it very hard to believe that he isn't a little bit bitter about the revision to the books he helped to write. Its only human nature. And while the corrections and changes are not NEEDED to run a functional game, from what I have seen so far, the changes go a long way towards addressing some of the faults and problems 3E had.

When Monte menioned that Wizards had planned a 3.5 revision from the time 3E came out, I could already hear the conspiracy theorists screaming. Say what you like, planning a revision a few years early is a GOOD idea. If WotC or the designers thought that 3E was a perfect product, they were deluding themselves. While a definite improvement over 2E, there were lots of problems and things that could use tweaking, but they didn't know at the time of 3Es release exactly what the problems were. By listening to customer feedback and doing further playtesting, they kept their options open and didn't fall into the blind "D&D is sacred" or "official" mindset TSR did. Instead, their willingness to actually listen to their customers does say to me that they are trying to improve the game. Yes, they also did it to make money- in any business the bottom line is to make money- so get over it. But from the comments of current WotC staff and designers about 3.5, I also think they truly believe that they are improving the game.

Now its understandable that some 3E publishers are going to grouse about 3.5, because it forces them to learn a new ruleset to support future products. They also might be concerned that there will be some lag time while they are learning the rules that they cannot release products. WotC seemed to try and remedy this problem by making photocopies of the books available to publishers WAY before the release of 3.5- so there is no reason to complain there. The other major reason to complain is that they will take a hit in sales because some of the 3E crowd won't switch to 3.5. That is to be suspected, but I doubt that the hit will be that big of a problem- most people eventually will switch to 3.5, or at least download the SRD so they can look at the differences.

As for the "fractured community" arguement, it really doesn't hold much water. Gamers have always been a fractured community, through their support of various systems, playing styles, support of products for the same system, and preferences. I have yet to play in a 3E campaign that did not significantly house rule (as in 5+ pages). And you know what? Worrying about playing "official" D&D is simply the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. There are no WotC "game police" who will monitor you games, and beat you with phone books if you don't follow the party line. Between most 3E or 3.5 games, the base rules will be the same, with a few minor alterations. Simply learn them- its no big deal. It only becomes a big deal when a player refuses to learn or modify his playing style, claiming moral superiority for being a faithful "by the books" adherent. In that case, the PLAYER is the problem, not the system.

It seems to me that the main grouse about 3.5 is that people either don't like the changes, or are worried that their characters will be changed or take a hit in power. If that is your problem, simply state that- its a valid point. If you don't like the changes, no one will make you buy the books or use them. But claiming conspiracies and setting yourself up as a 3E martyr is simply ridiculous, and little more than trolling.
 

Aaron L said:
Ninja Scroll?

My thoughts exactly. Huh?

My DM has yet to describe fountains of blood when we decapitate opponents. None of the female npcs or pcs have had poison skin, and we have yet to kill a BBEG by encasing him in gold and dropping him in the ocean. :p

But I do tend to scream "GEMMA!" every now and then during a gaming session. :D
 

rushlight said:


Oh, here's a good bit from King_Stannis:

"Yeah, he should just shut up and pay his $90 before he can have an opinion on it, right? Why rely on the review of one of the guys who actually wrote the 3rd edition anyway? "

This isn't Monte's post. Its some dude who's never seen the books. It's a review based on another review! Talk about losing something in the translation. Sure I've used reviews of movies to make a decision. But I use reviews of PEOPLE WHO WATCHED THE MOVIE. I don't listen to some chump who says, "Well, I heard reviewers say that it sucked, so dude don't watch it..." That's absurd.

.

Forgive me, rushlight, but that makes almost no sense. And the only reason I put "almost" is because we are at ENWorld. Again, what would you have him do? The designer of 3E comes out and says, "you know what, there are definitely some problems with this 3.5"....he then goes on to list them in some pretty fair detail, and you talk about losing something in the translation? I'm not sure where you are going with it.

Are you implying that Monte has not seen the movie, or in this case, hasn't seen the books? All Shadowlord did was reference him and say that, based on that review, he's not going to get 3.5. Maybe he could have said it a better way, but essentially that's it. Do you want him to pay $90 and do his own review? He obviously doesn't like alot of what he heard Monte say.

You have every reason in the world to call anyone who doesn't buy 3.5 on principle a curmudgeon or worse. Just like they have every right to call you a sucker for paying close to 100 bones for a quasi revision/new edition. As for me, as I've already said, I won't get the books but will get the download of changes made. I can live with that to fix any wrongs done in 3E.
 

Joshua Dyal said:
The door had no bearing on him.

I disagree. I think it has quite a bit of bearing.

Joshua Dyal said:
I really don't see where you're going with this.

I think it's very clear where I'm going with this.

Joshua Dyal said:
Bad analogy.

Hardly. It's simple, yes, not but bad.

Joshua Dyal said:
If you think that those are fundamentally serving the same niche in the marketplace, I think you're flat out wrong.

OK. I don't.
 

Not getting into why Monte left (because quite frankly this is an issue between WoTC and Monte) and how one feels this affects his relationship with WoTC (the only person that can answer this is Monte) - I do feel that with Monte creating a "variant PHB" that there is the POTENTIAL for conflict of interest - and I think that anyone who disagrees with this is deluding themselves.

This potentail is what makes Monte's words slightly less valuable - than they might be.

Secondly - regarding the grand illuminati conspiracy to release 4.0 sometime in the next three years - as Gothmog said, planning for this is GOOD BUSINESS!!!!! My company just release version 12 of our product - we are ALREADY coding version 13 and planning 14 and 15. Is this some sort of machevellian plan? No, it is necessary for us to stay in business and to respond to both customer requests and industry directions. Will all of our customers deploy them - no - Just like 3.5 vs 3.0 v 2e ve 1e, etc......
 

I like many of the changes, and a find a few of them rather disturbing.

But I do agree with one thing I gathered from Monte's review: It is simply too much too soon.

These books are at least two years early, in my opinion.

One other thing, is there anyone out there fool enough to pay $90 for them when you can get them for $58 online? Even less if you get a discount coupon from a friend...

These books will actually cost me less than the 3.0 ones did, and I bought each of those on the day it came out (save for PHB, where I was about three days in from indecision after nearly 15 years away from DnD). Mostly as a matter of tax...
 

Utrecht said:
Not getting into why Monte left (because quite frankly this is an issue between WoTC and Monte) and how one feels this affects his relationship with WoTC (the only person that can answer this is Monte) - I do feel that with Monte creating a "variant PHB" that there is the POTENTIAL for conflict of interest - and I think that anyone who disagrees with this is deluding themselves.
That's a bit like saying a stripped down basic Ford Focus and a top of the line Jaguar XJR are competing head to head for the same buyers, though. I think anyone claiming that the PHB3.5 is going to steal sales away from AU is deluding themselves.

kreynolds: I've tried three times now to get you to explain why you think the way you do. Each time you've essentially said that you just do and that's that. You dismiss my points as irrelevant but have nothing to offer in their place. I mean, really, if you don't want to discuss this, why post your opinion in the first place?
confused.gif
 
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Piratecat said:
Don't be silly, Shadowlord. Monte had some excellent points, but I have them, and I personally like about 90% of the changes. Of course they have an interest in improving the game; they just also have an interest in making money.

I'd be a lot happier of people could decide things for themselves, instead of reading commentary and making an emotional conclusion without ever having seen the books. I strongly recommend that you glance through someone's copies before making up your mind. The new MM is especially useful, I think.

So, to sum up: being a sheep is bad. Having a knee-jerk reaction is bad. Thinking for yourself is good. If you don't want to buy them, that's obviously fine - but please don't come here and try to convince others when you haven't even seen the darn things yet. That's sort of bad form.

Good Points Piratecat. I will be getting all 3 new 3.5 books tomorrow(at £50.00 = $75.00) and look forward to exporing all the new rules in detail. Some I may not use but I am sure that will be the minority. Peace All. :)
 

King_Stannis said:


Forgive me, rushlight, but that makes almost no sense. And the only reason I put "almost" is because we are at ENWorld. Again, what would you have him do? The designer of 3E comes out and says, "you know what, there are definitely some problems with this 3.5"....he then goes on to list them in some pretty fair detail, and you talk about losing something in the translation? I'm not sure where you are going with it.

I was refering to the original post, not Monte's post.

Are you implying that Monte has not seen the movie, or in this case, hasn't seen the books? All Shadowlord did was reference him and say that, based on that review, he's not going to get 3.5. Maybe he could have said it a better way, but essentially that's it. Do you want him to pay $90 and do his own review? He obviously doesn't like alot of what he heard Monte say.

No, that's not what he said at all. Here's what he said:

Originally posted by Shadowlord


If you've read Monte Cook's review on the revised books, you should be smart enough to realize that WOTC doesn't have any interest in improving the game and that in fact buying all new books again isn't going to improve your game much or even at all (possibly confusing you at the cost of gaming pleasure).

There's only two kinds of people who will buy those books:
1. Those who are new to the game which is OK.
2. Those fanatic enough to take whatever WOTC throws at them. I wouldn't wanna eat dirt like that...

First, he doesn't include a link to Monte's review, which is a minor point. Then he goes on to say that people who buy 3.5 "...should be smart enough to realize that WOTC doesn't have any interest in improving the game..." and that those people are "...fanatic enough to take whatever WOTC throws at them." In a thread which he titled "Say NO to 3.5". See, he's actively trying to persuade people not to buy 3.5 and insulting them if they do. He doesn't even explicitly say that he WON'T buy it. He doesn't like it, and he's on a crusade to keep others from liking it too. Or else he just wants to start tossing some dirt. Bah, either way there's not much on TV so here I am. I need more hobbies. :)

You have every reason in the world to call anyone who doesn't buy 3.5 on principle a curmudgeon or worse. Just like they have every right to call you a sucker for paying close to 100 bones for a quasi revision/new edition. As for me, as I've already said, I won't get the books but will get the download of changes made. I can live with that to fix any wrongs done in 3E.

See, he's using a Logical Fallacy (boy, I'm really getting my money's worth from university!) called "Appeal to Authority" combined with the "Attacking the Person" for good measure. He's citing Monte for some "credibility" and saying that if you disagree you are "fanatic enough to take whatever WOTC throws at them" and also stupid. A powerful combination, my friend...
 

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