Scarred Lands Canceled?

[Scribble]

I remember wayyy back in the day hehe circa 1994... I bought my GURPS 3rd edition book in a B. Dalton Bookstore in the mall...

Now all I see in the mall bookstores are WOTC products.

Borders still has WW and WOTC though. But no GURPS.

 

[buzz]

AU has a similar engine to D&D, yes, but the classes, the magic system and the power progression are very distinctive from D&D, which is part of its special appeal.

Not so distinct. The whole point of AU is that it's a "variant" you can use with your DMG and MM in place of the PHB. You can drop AU elements into D&D (and vice-versa) with little if any conversion.

M&M is a supers game, something completely different, with a very much streamlined version of the d20 engine. That's why they are "only" OGL products.

M&M (and AU) are OGL becasue they include information on how to generate stats and award expereince, which is precluded by the d20STL. There is no other reason they do not bear the d20 logo.

On the other hand, most d20 products on the market (I said most, not all) are nothing else than D&D supplements.

This was pretty much the point of the OGL. That companies have made other cool games based on the engine has been a happy side-effect.

The Scarred Lands fall into this category; they are a somewhat grittier version of the Forgotten Realms, of course with a few very interesting ideas as far as the setting specifics go. However, it's still near vanilla D&D. And it's these near vanilla D&D supplements by other companies than WotC which have a hard time on the market at the moment.

I don't know if a product's being "vanilla" really has anything to do with its success or the end of the d20 boom. Mongoose (bigger market share than GURPS right now), Malhavoc, Green Ronin, and Necromancer have made a very profitable business (as game companies go) out of "vanilla" D&D supplements... and plenty of companies have gone belly-up making "not-vanilla" d20 product.

Look at Atlas. IMO, they made some of the best d20 product out there, but they've decided to give their Penumbra line a rest. I would hardly describe their product as "vanilla". If anything, I think that it departed too much from the typical D&D model, and thus didn't appeal to a lot of people, unfortunately.

But, otoh, Kalamar seems to be going strong, and I don't think you can get much more vanilla than that (save for Necromancer, which is also doing well).

 

[Nightfall]

Crothy,

Glad you enjoyed Edge. I think it fits in more however with Beyond Countless Doorways meself.

john,

Maybe so but I do ask Joe a lot. He's never lied to me. Might not say something but he never lied to me.

Numion,

That's my hope as well. A relaunch might just be what S&SS/Scarred Lands needs to get back on track.

Dead,

Sadly I don't believe a word that you say. Why? Because FR will die. If only because people will eventually tire of the bloat that has consumed FR, ESPECIALLY because of the novels that have been written.

Regarding vanilla d20. Eh. It depends on how people want to USE such products. Malhavoc Press succeeds primarily because they use both AU (a d20 variant) AND d20 stuff that's easy to use elsewhere. (Plus people hold to Monte the same way old 1st and 2nd edition gamers hold to Gary.)

I think I need to post again on my "ask the Sage" thread...

 

[Turjan]

Not so distinct. The whole point of AU is that it's a "variant" you can use with your DMG and MM in place of the PHB. You can drop AU elements into D&D (and vice-versa) with little if any conversion.

Yes, you can. You will have quite a lot of work to do with your spellcasters, though, and I heard from players that the power level is not really the same. Anyway, AU is presented in a way that doesn't make it easy to transfer the elements into D&D. I suppose that's part of the concept. M&M is definitely not transferable into D&D.

This was pretty much the point of the OGL. That companies have made other cool games based on the engine has been a happy side-effect.

Right, the point of the OGL was to let other companies produce those products that are not profitable for WotC. This went well for both sides, because WotC could concentrate on the high volume core products with general topics (I mean this in a broader sense, including things like the "Manual of the Planes" or "Psionic Handbook"), and the small low-cost companies could shell out very specialized source books ("Hammer and Helm"), variant concepts ("Artificer's Handbook") or adventures. Unfortunately for the small companies, WotC has published all core books and is now grazing on the same meadow as the d20 crowd with specialized race books ("Races of Stone") or variant concepts ("Unearthed Arcana"). Only adventures seem to be too small of a market for WotC, leaving (more or less) one other company that makes money in this field.

I don't know if a product's being "vanilla" really has anything to do with its success or the end of the d20 boom. Mongoose (bigger market share than GURPS right now), Malhavoc, Green Ronin, and Necromancer have made a very profitable business (as game companies go) out of "vanilla" D&D supplements... and plenty of companies have gone belly-up making "not-vanilla" d20 product.

You are completely right with the point that the companies you mentioned became big with "vanilla" D&D supplements. However, three of them recently shifted a good part of their production into non-"vanilla" products, like Slaine (didn't go well), Conan, AU, Mutant & Masterminds. The only exception is Necromancer Games, who found a nice niche with their clever nostalgia concept combined with a look on quality and the fact that their product does not compete with WotC at all; in this case it's a perfect synergy.

Look at Atlas. IMO, they made some of the best d20 product out there, but they've decided to give their Penumbra line a rest. I would hardly describe their product as "vanilla". If anything, I think that it departed too much from the typical D&D model, and thus didn't appeal to a lot of people, unfortunately.

Hmm... maybe your definition of "vanilla" differs from mine. Is there anything in the Penumbra line that does not fit into plain D&D? I don't think so. I think it's simply the combination of high production costs (the books are well produced), high prices (small hardbacks have a high per page price, and their layout seems not to go well with many gamers ("Ah! I found a white space on the page! Give me my money back!")), lower print runs and the new competition with WotC. As they see that they cannot compete with the original company on the same subjects, they may have decided to concentrate on their own games instead. Perhaps, White Wolf drew a similar conclusion.

 

[Gez]

One question I'm wondering is, if the Scarred Lands are cancelled, what does that mean for CC4?

 

[johnsemlak]

One question I'm wondering is, if the Scarred Lands are cancelled, what does that mean for CC4?

Well, like the two recent R&R books, it could be a non-Scarred Lands branded book.

 

[Telperion]

Well, like the two recent R&R books, it could be a non-Scarred Lands branded book.

There were at least two whole continents and then some more (that I have read / heard about) being planned for the setting, so I don't think CC4 going to be non-Scarred Lands. Could be that the up-coming Lost Tribes hardcover will also present some of the new monsters as well those continents that have been mentioned before...*shrugs*...I don't know...

 

[buzz]

Yes, you can. You will have quite a lot of work to do with your spellcasters, though, and I heard from players that the power level is not really the same. Anyway, AU is presented in a way that doesn't make it easy to transfer the elements into D&D. I suppose that's part of the concept.

I had thought part of the concept was that it was transferable to D&D. That's why it doesn't have its own DMG and core MM. That's why short appendicies are usually enough to make the D&D spells in Malhavoc products useable in AU.

Right, the point of the OGL was to let other companies produce those products that are not profitable for WotC.

The point of the OGL was to drive sales of the PHB by encouraging companies to adopt d20 as a system. That 3rd-party publishers are able to fill certain product niches that WotC can't afford to bother with on a regular basis is another happy side-effect.

Unfortunately for the small companies, WotC has published all core books and is now grazing on the same meadow as the d20 crowd with specialized race books ("Races of Stone") or variant concepts ("Unearthed Arcana").

I don't think there was ever any guarantee made by WotC that they would avoid compteing with other companies in terms of subject matter. Conversely, this never stopped, e.g., WW from putting out a monster book (CC1) before WotC could. Other companies have also produced plenty of products that essentially serve as substitutes for the PHB.

However, three of them recently shifted a good part of their production into non-"vanilla" products, like Slaine (didn't go well), Conan, AU, Mutant & Masterminds.

Slaine has been dead for a couple years now. I don't know if one can say that GR has "shifted" product in favor of M&M. They produce far more D&D-related product, and it's that product that seems to make them money. As I understand it, M&M isn't even particularly profitable.

AU is probably the most successful, but that could simply be becasue it's really, really good and it has Monte Cook's name on it. Still, their D&D product outnumbers their AU product about 2:1.

Hmm... maybe your definition of "vanilla" differs from mine. Is there anything in the Penumbra line that does not fit into plain D&D?

IMO, the tone and focus of their supplements is 180-degrees from standard D&D. Occult Lore was basically ArM's The Mysteries translated to d20. In the Belly of the Beast, Ascention of the Magdalene, and Sundered Peace are almost all role-playing and minimal combat. And Nyambe? Big HC books on love, crime, and politics?

This stuff was all awesome, but not your typical D&D cup o' tea.

As they see that they cannot compete with the original company on the same subjects, they may have decided to concentrate on their own games instead. Perhaps, White Wolf drew a similar conclusion.

Only John Nephew can say for sure. IIRC, they simply make a lot more money with their card games (card games are generally in their top three sales spots). With the d20 boom over, it seems reasonable to scale back Penumbra to focus on other things.

 

[Fevil]

Umm, excuse me?

Quite a few of the writers/developers for Scarred Lands are involved in forums across the length and breadth of the internet. Joe Carriker, who's been the primary SL developer for a couple of years now, is on several forums. I can't even keep track of all the D&D/D20 forums I participate on, and I know several of the writers pop in regularly to the Scarred Lands forum on the SSS web site.

If there's something specific you've been waiting for, I apologize; I'm not involved in the publishing of actual web material. But if you're actually saying that we don't participate in the online community, you're way off-base.

I don't believe I actually mentioned the writers or developers, my gripe was about S&SS. I know you and the other writer/developers have been active, but just talking about the setting is not enough for me. I like to see canon articles written about a setting by publishers and then posted on the official website. Even following up on promises made to publish content left out of sourcebooks would be nice. Granted SL did have this, but it doesnt anymore, it doesn't even have it's own official, and up to date, website.

The fans and writers may be supporting it, but the publishers have certainly stopped.

 

[Nightfall]

Tel and John,

Regarding CC4, the last I heard (and this was by no means the last word), is they canceled or put it on hiatus.

Fevil,

Yeah well I don't see a lot of top Hasbro execs writing gaming articles. But your point is well taken. I do think that it wouldn't have been too much to ask for maybe Steve Wieck and a few of the top WW brass to come over and do a few articles now and again.