School shootings in Montreal

[Banshee16]

A terrible tragedy, indeed.

But, not tremendously surprising - it is Montreal, after all. While having a comparatively lower overall crime rate than Vancouver (and Edmonton and Winnipeg, though not Toronto, Calgary, Hamilton, or Ottawa), the number of crimes against those who do not have "risky lifestyles" [a police/crime definition] is ridiculously high, and skyrocketing. Further, Montreal has had the unfortunate claim of being the center of a number of "high profile" crimes over the years, along with being a hotbed of 'questionable' support for certain 'foreign organizations' (lots of cute euphimisms, here!) as well as being the site of the only home-grown terrorist group in Canada.

For example, Winnipeg has one of the highest crime rates in the country (in cities over 500,000 population), but is actually safer than many of the above listed cities for those who do not lead the so-called "risky lifestyles" (i.e. homicides against innocents is pretty much negligible in Winnipeg).

That's the crime rate one has to look at when determining how safe a city is to live. Unfortunately, since that data is more difficult and time-consuming to collect, it isn't as widely reported as it should be. (At least a couple of newspapers reported on this through investigative journalism not too long ago, actually.)

How recent are those statistics? Are they inflated by bystander casualties during the biker wars a few years ago? Or does this hold during any given year? And are they mean, or average figures?

As to home-grown terrorists, if you're talking about the October Crisis, that was 36 years ago....and a relatively short-lived event... Those people haven't really been active since. Being a hot bed of support for questionable organizations.....I get the point you're trying to make there. I'm not sure if it's a hot bed.....but it's definitely been a rallying location, especially in recent weeks. But to avoid straying into politics, I'll shut my mouth on that matter

I'm not sure where to even go to look up crime statistics here.

Banshee

 

[Nyaricus]

Do the coats represent some kind of click or status symbol now days? Or, is it just the style chosen by today's youths, or those who want to be viewed as rebels?

A combination of those things, yeah. I'm an 18 y.o. who identifies himself as a metalhead amoungst other things, and I know a few people who wear trench coats who are amoungst the people I know.

But look at any given group of people, and you'll find they come in all shapes and sizes.

Let's take metalheads, for example. Mohawks, long hair, shaved heads, goatees, beards, moustaches, shags, sideburns, cleanshaven, spiked hair, shorts, pants, shoes, boots, steel-toe boots, gloves, braclets, rings, piercings, tattoos, and so on and so fourth.

The fact is that a combination of the elements that we experience as a culture and a people are chosen in some way to help one group help identify within itself. Take a few choice selections from those above, add in some approprait things missing (toolbelts, etc), and you'd have a group of construction workers

The fact is that wearing a trenchcoat in-and-of-itself doesn't make you a bad person, nor does it mean you are a violnet person. Your son is likely just being himself, and trying to fit in amongst his peers. My suggestion is to let him be; if he's honestly too hot, he can easily take off his trenchcoat himself.

The other half of my suggestion is to talk with your son, and keep a relationship with him other than father-son. Be a peer to him, and he might very well open up back to you. This doesn't mean let it take over you relationship with him, but it means maintaining that aspect of it. My father never did this, which has caused a rift between us, and it's some of the best advice I can think of giving you at this point. Get interested in his interests, and compliment him on any of his acheivements in those areas.

cheers,
--N

 

[devilbat]

Call me old, but I don't understand why many of the disturbed (or crazy) people that I read about in the news are into wearing trenchcoats. It worries me because my son likes to wear a trench coat as a 'fashion statement'. I occasionally have to make him take it off it in hot weather.

Do the coats represent some kind of click or status symbol now days? Or, is it just the style chosen by today's youths, or those who want to be viewed as rebels?

You're old, and I'm in my thirties, so I guess I'm not far off.

Kids wearing trenchcoats today are no different then the other rebellious teenage acts of bygone eras.

Many of the infamous serial killers over the last twenty five years have worn glasses. Should we be worried that people who wear glasses are more likely to kill?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Call me old, but I don't understand why many of the disturbed (or crazy) people that I read about in the news are into wearing trenchcoats. It worries me because my son likes to wear a trench coat as a 'fashion statement'. I occasionally have to make him take it off it in hot weather.

Do the coats represent some kind of click or status symbol now days? Or, is it just the style chosen by today's youths, or those who want to be viewed as rebels?

I used to wear a trenchcoat back in high school. Black. It was actually a quite useful garment (the inside pocket could hold my old 1st ed Player's Handbook), and it made me stand out in a crowd, which was one of the reasons I chose it. I also wore a black fedora hat with it, and when I would wear a white collared shirt (esp. with tie) I looked like a bizarre anachronism from the 50s.

It's a fashion thing. Black is a rebellious colour. Regular people do not wear trenchcoats anymore, so it's become a symbol of being different. If you're fed up with popular culture and want to establish that you're not one of the mooks, peons, and other NPCs that surround you, dressing differently is an easy way of making that statement.

Unfortunately, the people who are different seem to be the most likely to blow up and shoot up a school. Go figure--if you feel like you're alone in the world and other people reinforce that opinion, it's not a stretch to think that if your mental state is a bit poorly-aligned that you might start to dehumanize others. I hear that in Columbine, there were some positive changes after the shootings. The other students came to the realization that they had been part of the reason that those kids went postal: they had treated them like pariahs, and that led to the shooters wanting to take revenge. Apparently, things have changed there, and the students have learned the wisdom of treating other kids like human beings, with real feelings and aspirations. This is something that the students themselves have done to change the atmosphere of the school, which formerly had apparently been somewhat suffocating.

Interestingly, it took some kids shooting up the school before those positive changes occurred. A previous incident in Montreal involved a Concordia professor who shot four other professors in a rampage, claiming that they were stealing his work. His claims were not unfounded, and it led to a major overhaul of the research policies of the school. It is doubtful if such an overhaul would have occurred if he hadn't shot some people.

Something to think about, anyway. Why do we need a gun-wielding maniac to go on a rampage before we make any positive social changes? Couldn't we "jump the gun" and identify problems before they turn into murder? I can't believe that we can't identify dangerous social situations early enough to put things right before they go wrong. Even just listening to outcast kids and working to fix their social environment so that it's not a constant source of pain might be enough to prevent future Columbines and Dawsons.

 

[Arnwyn]

How recent are those statistics? Are they inflated by bystander casualties during the biker wars a few years ago? Or does this hold during any given year? And are they mean, or average figures?

Averages, over multiple years (up through 2005). The trends are clear.

As to home-grown terrorists, if you're talking about the October Crisis, that was 36 years ago....and a relatively short-lived event... Those people haven't really been active since.

I am. Indeed, it was short lived, but it's still a consideration as to what attitudes have been "bred" there in the past, and could easily flare up again.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Vancouver recently had a dude running around stabbing homeless people every day. They eventually busted him.

Otherwise people in Vancouver are too stoned to commit crimes.

Given the anecdotes I have heard about Montreal, I dont think that Vancouver automatically wins the prize for 'most recreational drug use in canada' quite that easily, heh.

I am guessing that this guy was a ticking time bomb, and that he had this idea floating in his head for some time. I dont think that the problem is that this guy obtained a gun, or was goth. I think that the problem at its root is that this man was just too stupid to realize that his unhappy state was pretty much entirely of his own making.

The gunman was a 25 year old man. That he chose to go and shoot up Quebec's equivalent of a high school tells me that this is the goth lunatic equivalent of a washed up high school athelete who and cannot let the past go. He may very well have been picked on in school, but unless this guy failed 7 or 8 times, there was no way he was still a student. Once your out of high school, how wonderful or crappy your life is usally has more to do with what you choose to do than how your grew up. There are exceptions, but I doubt this is one of them.

The problem as I see it is not flawed gun laws or even high school bullying. The problem is that too many people go through high school without realizing how utterly trivial and transitory high school really is in the greater scheme of things. High school does suck more for some people than it does for others, but it does end, either with graduating or dropping out. And once your out of high school, you pretty much never have to see anyone you went to school with ever again unless you actually want to.

It just p*sses me off to no end to think that one person died, and many others were badly injured, just because some idiot could not get past how crappy his high school experience was that he allowed the rest of his life to suck and then tried to end the lives of others.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Banshee16]

It's a fashion thing. Black is a rebellious colour. Regular people do not wear trenchcoats anymore, so it's become a symbol of being different. If you're fed up with popular culture and want to establish that you're not one of the mooks, peons, and other NPCs that surround you, dressing differently is an easy way of making that statement.


Something to think about, anyway. Why do we need a gun-wielding maniac to go on a rampage before we make any positive social changes? Couldn't we "jump the gun" and identify problems before they turn into murder? I can't believe that we can't identify dangerous social situations early enough to put things right before they go wrong. Even just listening to outcast kids and working to fix their social environment so that it's not a constant source of pain might be enough to prevent future Columbines and Dawsons.

Wow. I'm a mook! Cool! Or uncool?

I think the whole idea of grouping people doesn't really help. I think most people are complex enough that you can't really apply a label to them. I listen to pop music, wear a leather coat in the spring and fall, and have a sports car. I'm also an avid gamer, and fan of fantasy literature, as well as loving camping and such. I know you're trying to make a point, but I feel that it's just as pointless for those on the "fringe" to make generalizations as it is for those in the "mainstream". Neither way is better than the other.

I've known good people on both sides of society, as well as bad people on both sides. I've known "good kids", who displayed very antisocial behaviour when I actually got to know them...to the point that I wouldn't want to let my children (when I have them) anywhere near them. And I've known some people who were more externally individualistic who were very intelligent and mild mannered. And in both cases, I've known the opposite as well.

Regardless of how we dress, it's how we act that matters. I do think that many people are sometimes hesitant to say anything when it's someone they know who is doing something wrong. There's a reticence to believe someone would carry through on negative behaviour. Maybe it's because many of us try to believe the best of others, until proven otherwise. Unfortunately, that "proving otherwise" then sometimes becomes things like what happened on Wednesday.

Banshee

 

[caudor]

Regardless of how we dress, it's how we act that matters. I do think that many people are sometimes hesitant to say anything when it's someone they know who is doing something wrong. There's a reticence to believe someone would carry through on negative behaviour. Maybe it's because many of us try to believe the best of others, until proven otherwise. Unfortunately, that "proving otherwise" then sometimes becomes things like what happened on Wednesday.

Banshee

Good point. I sometimes catch myself in self-denial that events like this are real. I think it is a natural tendency. How many times have you seen seen people on the news say, "I can't believe something like happened here...right on our block".

 

[Knightfall]

Our violent crime rates are much lower than in the U.S., but stuff still happens here...

There was the shooting in Alberta the same year as Columbine, but only one student died.

Taber.

 

[Joël of the FoS]

Taber.

Tabarnak, mets-en

---

Awful thing. One seemingly very nice person died horribly.

Many media blamed his gothic lifestyle, and the site Vampire freaks. It think it is wrong IMHO. Remember, they accused D&D too of inciting suicide and murder.

These cultural things are not violent in itself. However, if you're a crackhead, it won't make you normal. But then playing golf might make them become violent.

Sadly, the Dawson killer was a gun loving nut. I don't think we need semiautomatic guns in Canada, it's not even useful (or considered good sport) when hunting.

Joël