scouts and skirmishing

[irdeggman]

1. No new material is automatically allowed in my game without my approval. The new class I have not seen before from a book I do not own has features that don't make sense to me and will only trip me up as I think about it and try to describe it in use so I did not add it to the classes that can be used in my game. Tell me why you think that is a crappy reason and not an eminently reasonable position to take in deciding what new rules material to allow into the game I am running so that I am comfortable running it?

This is a good reason not to introduce something you don't understand. You should not make a hasty decision, nor rely on the player to read it for you - but should borrow the book and read it yourself. While not necessary a good reason to say it is unbalanced, just not allowed (at least not yet).

If you notice the skirmish damage is after the scout has moved at elast 10 ft - hence negating any more than 1 attack in a round.

A rogue can apply his sneak attack damage to any ranged attack w/i 30 ft as long as the conditions are met. In this case the foe being flatfooted (i.e., hasn't had his turn yet) so a rogue with multiple attacks gets his damage added to all of them. Works since the rogue doesn't have to move in order to qualify for his sneak attack damage. Doesn't seem any more out of balance to me.

 

[Voadam]

Because you are making a rules decision based upon the fact that you cannot describe what is going on, not because there is some flaws in the rules. That's a crappy reason.

I'm making a decision not to allow in a new class that does things that don't make sense and I will have trouble describing. I can describe magic and make sense of it in the context of the game. I can describe feinting. I can describe sneak attacks. I can describe turning. Part of my job as DM is to describe what happens when the PC uses their class powers. I am under no obligation to allow in purely mechanical powers with no descriptions that don't make sense, even if I don't think it is unbalanced.

 

[irdeggman]

A way to describe skirmish damage:

Scout has to move in order to "find" a clear and vital spot.

In fact the description says "The scout must be able to see the target well enough to pick a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot."

This implies that the movement is necesary in order to gain this clear shot (whether in melee or via ranged attack).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I am under no obligation to allow in purely mechanical powers with no descriptions that don't make sense, even if I don't think it is unbalanced.

Of course you aren't. Heck, you can outlaw Fighters and Feats if you want to.

That doesn't mean your reason for doing so is particularly good.

 

[Voadam]

Did you ever consider, perchance, letting the player describe things?

Perhaps you should re-read my posting above. Here, I'll quote it for you

"He suggested it was because the scout "catches them off guard" when he moves, but an archer being better when he fires on the run just seems too counter to my experiences for it to jibe for me."

He did try to provide a description of the power but failed to describe it in a way that made sense for me. I came back here and asked if anybody else could describe it in a way that made sense. I have yet to see a response that does explain it so it makes sense. Perhaps if I saw those two movies it would make sense in the way that Bill the Butcher's attacks in Gangs of NY seemed to fit the concept and worked for me with melee attacks or how I can see it working reasonably with a charge.

 

[irdeggman]

Perhaps you should re-read my posting above. Here, I'll quote it for you

"He suggested it was because the scout "catches them off guard" when he moves, but an archer being better when he fires on the run just seems too counter to my experiences for it to jibe for me."

He did try to provide a description of the power but failed to describe it in a way that made sense for me. I came back here and asked if anybody else could describe it in a way that made sense. I have yet to see a response that does explain it so it makes sense.

I think the problem arrises because of predisposition towards sneak attack and equating the two. They aren't the same, regardless of the effect. The skirmish attack doesn't require the opponent to be flatfooted (e.g., "off guard") only that the scout be able to find a good target to hit - hence the movement requirement, IMO.

So the player would it apears to me have sent you down a poor path for rationalization by so describing the ability.

 

[tensen]

Folks I've seen use it end up being annoyed.. because in the end the scout can't do multiple attacks a round (since they moved)... so this is much less useful at higher levels.

 

[irdeggman]

Folks I've seen use it end up being annoyed.. because in the end the scout can't do multiple attacks a round (since they moved)... so this is much less useful at higher levels.

I believe I said that he would be limited to a single attack earlier. I don't think that is the problem that Voadam is having. He is not having issues with balance only with trying to envision why the scout gets the bonus in the first place.

 

[Voadam]

No, but the essence of skirmish warfare is hit and move, hit and move. I fire once from over here, run over there, and shoot you again. You're never entirely sure where my next shot is coming from, and so you react to it less well than you would have, otherwise.

If he was invisible to start and ambushed someone they would not know where it is coming from and would react less well than otherwise, but no skirmish damage unless moving.

He doesn't have to hide. He doesn't have to catch his opponent off balance. His opponent can be fully focused on tracking him in an open field and be aware of where he is with no distractions. All he has to do to get more damage is move and then blast with his eldritch blast from 60 feet away.

 

[Voadam]

I believe I said that he would be limited to a single attack earlier. I don't think that is the problem that Voadam is having. He is not having issues with balance only with trying to envision why the scout gets the bonus in the first place.

Correct. How can movement lead to increased damage on a ranged attack?