Scry/Teleport/Mindblank High Level Intrigue

[ruleslawyer]

So every campaign milieu apparently runs via a capitalist economic system? That's kind of funny, because feudal medieval societies didn't quite work that way.

That depends on what you mean by "capitalist," dcollins. Mercantile capitalism might have been subordinate to the feudal system in most of Western Europe, but trade and markets (which is really the issue here) flourished. Farmers, hunters (or poachers!), the clergy, and the nobility, landlords included, all relied on trade and barter to obtain certain much-needed goods (additional protein for farmers, weapons and sundries for hunters/poachers, and fancy goods of all sorts for the nobles), and artisans and merchants dealt in trade.

That said, a D&D world probably would be even more "capitalist" given greater transparency, ease of transport of goods, and so many high-value products and free coin around. But, back to discussion:

strongbow: As you can see, people have provided you with the answer you need for internal campaign consistency. At levels at which scry-buff-teleport is available (9th onward), Mordenkainen's private sanctum also is available. That means that important people don't venture forth from their strongholds without putting themselves in mortal danger, but that's not too different from the historical "Dark"/Middle Ages, is it?

Likewise, once you have discern location, you're talking 17th-level characters here. At that point, everyone should have mind blank up, all the time. If my opponents have access to a 9th-level spell that works on a one-off basis, it's certain that I'll use an 8th-level spell that works all day.

In the case of your PCs: Well, they're adventurers. They lead a hard and dangerous life, and need to expect that their opponents will come after them with all the resources at their command. Speaking of which: Why weren't their opponents warding themselves from scrying?

Also, I really don't understand how this tactic is quite so dangerous in 3.5 unless you're always outside a protected area. You get a Will save to avoid being scried; if you make it, the spell fails. How many scrying spells does the average BBEG have prepared each day? A 9th-level wizard with an Int of 22 gets three 4th-level spells; even if he uses all of them to prepare scrying (unlikely at best), AND uses all three against the same PC party (even more unlikely), that's three scry attempts against the party per day; three Will saves. Moreover, the wizard has to be lucky enough to catch the PCs outside a protected area, so that three saves per day drops to about one in all likelihood. Hardly that dangerous.

So, in a world in which everyone has equal access to magic, scry-buff-teleport will not be the end-all strategy. Plainly put, it just doesn't work. True, there are still problems involved, namely the fact that not all disputes will involve people who have equal access to magic. But, when dealing with adventurers, you should be fine.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Since in 3.5 lead block scrying, there´s little reason not to tile your entire fortress with that metal.

Right.

Which is why houses today still use lead-based paint.

It's harmless!

 

[Shallown]

At the very beginning of my campaign I put forth the idea that temples/churches were all proof against scry and teleport. It was a natural function of the building/holiness of the area. Not every shrine, holy ground is proof but all the major churches were naturally proof. Also A few physical places were proof as well. It is also possible to purchase alchemical substances added to motar and such. These were established facts in my game. It doesn't nerf or shut down scry teleport but it does make it more difficult to just bop around. My players are 14-15 level and have ready access to these spells and use the a good deal they are just not always the answer. Also one way to slow them down (works in my game to some extent) is that the party is quiet large with followers and such. So it takes more than one person to rip off teleports. Start counting familiars and companions and it can begin to be hard to do. Just a few ideas. After all they aren't 9th level spells so They shouldn't be world shattering boom-boom.

later

 

[strongbow]

Permanent Private Sanctum

Permanent Private Sanctum is a good idea, and worth the investment, but it does not stop Discern Location. Certainly the high level NPCs will Mind Blank themselves, but envision this:

DM: Ok, your spy network/willing Scry recipient/divinations/scouting have worked. There is a major outpost of the king here, with approximately 12,000 troops.
Players: All 12,000 aren't protected by Mind Blank/Private Sanctum, so we want to teleport into their barracks and start killing.
DM: Ha ha, but you won't get the king, he has Mind Bland & Teleportation blocking magic!
Players: Who cares? After we sack five or six of his major towns and plunder, what will he have left?
DM: Hmmm, good point.

 

[strongbow]

Another tactic of Teleport/Kill: Control Winds.

<I started a seperate thread for this, but felt like I should post here. This spell has quite a lot of killing power--enough to level an army. Note the lack of SR as well...>

Has anyone used Control Winds to level a city or army? In looking at the spell, which I have reprinted from the SRD for your reference, a high level caster may create a tornado. With a simple enlarge, this spell has a radius of 1200 ft at 15th caster level. 2400 ft is about a half mile area, enough to encompass many city blocks. Even better, you keep a safe area around you to Dimensional Door with the party wizard to decimate another half mile area before escaping.

This spell is heinous. Unlike Control Weather, which takes 10 minutes to cast and manifest (and thus may be dealt with), Control Winds takes one action.

Thoughts?


3.5 DMG p 95 & SRD
Here are the effects of creating a half mile tornado in the middle of town:
Tornado 175–300 mph Impossible/impossible Fort Save DC
Large or smaller Blown away 30
Huge Knocked down N/A
Gargantuan or Colossal Checked N/A

*The siege weapon category includes ballista and catapult attacks as well as boulders tossed by giants.
**Flying or airborne creatures are treated as one size class smaller than their actual size, so an airborne Gargantuan dragon is treated as Huge for purposes of wind effects.
Checked: Creatures are unable to move forward against the force of the wind. Flying creatures are blown back 1d6x5 feet.
Knocked Down: Creatures are knocked prone by the force of the wind. Flying creatures are instead blown back 1d6x10 feet.
Blown Away: Creatures on the ground are knocked prone and rolled 1d4X10 feet, sustaining 1d4 points of subdual damage per 10 feet. Flying creatures are blown back 2d6X10 feet and sustain 2d6 points of subdual damage due to battering and buffeting.

SRD
Tornado: All flames are extinguished. All ranged attacks are impossible (even with siege weapons), as are Listen checks. Instead of being blown away (see Table: Wind Effects), characters in close proximity to a tornado who fail their Fortitude saves are sucked toward the tornado. Those who come in contact with the actual funnel cloud are picked up and whirled around for 1d10 rounds, taking 6d6 points of damage per round, before being violently expelled (falling damage may apply). While a tornado’s rotational speed can be as great as 300 mph, the funnel itself moves forward at an average of 30 mph. A tornado uproots trees, destroys buildings, and causes other similar forms of major destruction.



Control Winds
Transmutation
Level: Air 5, Drd 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 40 ft./level
Area: 40 ft./level radius centered on the character
Duration: 10 minutes/level
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: No
The character alters wind force in the area surrounding the character. The character can make the wind blow in a certain direction or manner, increase its strength, or decrease its strength. The new wind direction and strength persist until the spell ends or the character chooses to alter his or her handiwork, which requires concentration. The character may create an "eye" of calm air up to 80 feet in diameter at the center of the area if the character so desires, and the character may choose to limit the effect to any circular area less than the character's full range.
Wind Direction: The character may choose one of four basic wind patterns to function over the spell’s area:
A downdraft blows from the center outward in equal strength in all directions.
An updraft blows from the outer edges in toward the center in equal strength from all directions, veering upward before impinging on the eye in the center.
A rotation causes the winds to circle the center in clockwise or counterclockwise fashion.
A blast simply causes the winds to blow in one direction across the entire area from one side to the other.
Wind Force: For every three caster levels, the character can increase or decrease wind force by one level of strength. Each round, a creature in the wind must make a Fortitude save or suffer the effect.
Strong winds (21+ mph) make sailing difficult. A severe wind (31+ mph) causes minor ship and building damage. A windstorm (51+ mph) drives most flying creatures from the skies, uproots small trees, knocks down light wooden structures, tears off roofs, and endangers ships. Hurricane force winds (75+ mph) destroy wooden buildings, sometimes uproot even large trees, and cause most ships to founder. A tornado (175+ mph) destroys all nonfortified buildings and often uproots large trees.

 

[Endur]

All high level bases in my campaign have Mord's Secure Sanctum and/or Forbiddance. Scry/Buff/Teleport is much less of an issue.

Also, the Underdark has Fzerness which impacts both scrying and teleporting.

The bad guys also make heavy use of Psychic Poisons (BOVD) for those who try to scry them.

 

[Tiew]

Hey Strongbow, you raise some good points. I hope I'll have how a world with higher level magic would work figured out before my group gets there. I don't care too much about realism, but consistency and some versimilitude would be nice.

Couple of points. First, in D&D making magic items costs experience. I believe the only way to get experience is to risk your life. In my opinion, normal wizards (people who don't risk their lives on a daily basis like adventurers) aren't to keen on making magic items for this reason. I don't think kings and nobles would be able to buy too much in the way of magic items with just gold. This solves some of the problems of hundreds or lyres of building or other abuses and seems reasonable.

Second, although dealing with the effects of high powered magic may be tricky, I'm not convinced it's impossible. (Although I haven't nearly figured out all the implications yet. Owning a car gives me a whole lot of power. Every day there are dozens of people I could kill very easily. I don't of course though, partly because I've been trained not to think of doing such things, and partly because I know there would be consequences.

I think maybe high powered magic would work the same way. There would be a set of rules about what you did and didn't do. I imagine they would get broken sometimes, but I imagine doing so would bring the offender loads of trouble.

Maybe that's not a valid comparison though. You tell me. Looking forward to seeing what this thread turns up. I imagine will be useful in the future of my game.

 

[strongbow]

The difference btw fantasy D&D high magic and real life tech is twofold:

1) Characters can be raised from the dead. This makes suicide runs viable.

2) Characters can get away with destroying stuff b/c of Mindblank. In RL, the government tracks you down and throws you in prison. In D&D, a off planar stronghold and Mindblank will render a group of people nigh untouchable. You can conduct guerilla raid tactics from your stronghold with near impunity, since no-one can use magic to track you down. Even if they discover your identity, how will they find you? Assuming you provide for your basic needs off plane (which you can through Fabricate, Create Food & Water and any number of spells), there is no one living to know about you and thus rat you out. The Genesis spell aids greatly to build an off-plane stronghold.

 

[Someone]

Right.

Which is why houses today still use lead-based paint.

It's harmless!

Then a non spellcaster BBEG has to choose between lead posioning and a teleporting strike attack.

Ok, maybe he could sandwich the lead between the walls.

 

[Nail]

One spell at a time, bub.

You started trying to show Scry-buff-teleport was broken.

Now yer adding even more high level spells to the soup....and that makes your core arguement look even more flimsy. Your points don't work, when taken out of the vaccuum of personal experience.