Scry/Teleport/Mindblank High Level Intrigue
- Thread starter strongbow
- Start date
Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and Dimensional Lock can both be made permanent. Whilst this has become a bit of a running joke in my (high-level) campaign, in that nearly every major stronghold has one or both, it does prevent the Scry-Buff-Teleport-Kill routine. I can survive the jibes; the campaign couldn't stand constant Scry-Buff-Teleport-Kills.
Ogrork the Mighty
Explorer
Holy cheese factor Batman. Didn't the players get sick of using that tactic? If not, just start using it against them until their favourite characters are dead and then everyone can agree not to go down that path in the future...
two
First Post
The game is hardly hurt
The game is hardly hurt by applying a distance limit to scrying, and greatly reducing the range / use of teleport.
In general, teleport rarely if ever adds to the "fun factor" and nearly always results in GM headaches/campaign troubles.
That's why modifying teleport is probably the easiest and best way to go. I mean, will anyone really complain?
The game is hardly hurt by applying a distance limit to scrying, and greatly reducing the range / use of teleport.
In general, teleport rarely if ever adds to the "fun factor" and nearly always results in GM headaches/campaign troubles.
That's why modifying teleport is probably the easiest and best way to go. I mean, will anyone really complain?
One again, there are plenty of ways to "fix" Scry/Teleport Kill Kill, but I am looking for non-house rule ways.
I played in an evil campaign awhile ago. We had so many enemies that the only way to survive was to be in a divination proof room (yes, a house rule) and then step outside, teleport, and kill our enemies. Once we got higher level we cast Mind Blank to repeat the same tactic. We were not trying to be cheesy, nor we even fighting good. The campaign devolved into the DM placing suitable hooks for us to consider leaving our divination proof room and teleporting to kill our target.
I ask some of these questions in a legitimate desire to develop a consistent campaign world. If a Lyre of Building costs only 13,500, then every kingdom would have multiple Lyres to defend against attack. Basically when you try to instill any sense of economics to the game world (disregarding wonky prices for non-magical goods & services) the entire game world becomes so unbelievable. PCs and NPCs are going to find the most efficient path to power; that is not powergaming, it is the calculated self-interest of both capitalism and the basics of ruling a territory.
My point is, that trying to construct even a moderately plausible world with the magic spells in the PH breaks down way too fast. Yes, D&D is fantasy. Yes, D&D has a suspension of disbelief. It is just that the suspension of disbelief is so big not b/c of the magic itself, but b/c the application of the magic is so poor. The social ramifications of raise dead and other powerful magics are glossed over to the point of absurdity. Instead of giving up in disgust, I wish to construct a more workable model, preferably without house rules that limit PH spells.
Perhaps I should not be posting this on 4 beers, but what I am typing is making sense to me at the time I type it. I really enjoy D&D, and wish to make it a better game w/o 1500 house rules on the complications of magic. I am looking for a little bit of validation with what I perceive as a crippling lack of insight with how the PH spells would naturally influence the course of a medieval society. If Scry/Teleport/Kill is such an easy combo to pull off, what is to stop PCs and NPCs from doing it? If a Lyre of Building can accomplish such an amazing amount of labor, why not use them more? If buffing is so effective, why don't more character's do it?
Beyond violating the unspoken code between players and the DM not to use some powerful combos or spells, D&D game worlds should have more internal consistency. I'm stop writing to avoid any more ranting than I already have. Thanks for reading.
I played in an evil campaign awhile ago. We had so many enemies that the only way to survive was to be in a divination proof room (yes, a house rule) and then step outside, teleport, and kill our enemies. Once we got higher level we cast Mind Blank to repeat the same tactic. We were not trying to be cheesy, nor we even fighting good. The campaign devolved into the DM placing suitable hooks for us to consider leaving our divination proof room and teleporting to kill our target.
I ask some of these questions in a legitimate desire to develop a consistent campaign world. If a Lyre of Building costs only 13,500, then every kingdom would have multiple Lyres to defend against attack. Basically when you try to instill any sense of economics to the game world (disregarding wonky prices for non-magical goods & services) the entire game world becomes so unbelievable. PCs and NPCs are going to find the most efficient path to power; that is not powergaming, it is the calculated self-interest of both capitalism and the basics of ruling a territory.
My point is, that trying to construct even a moderately plausible world with the magic spells in the PH breaks down way too fast. Yes, D&D is fantasy. Yes, D&D has a suspension of disbelief. It is just that the suspension of disbelief is so big not b/c of the magic itself, but b/c the application of the magic is so poor. The social ramifications of raise dead and other powerful magics are glossed over to the point of absurdity. Instead of giving up in disgust, I wish to construct a more workable model, preferably without house rules that limit PH spells.
Perhaps I should not be posting this on 4 beers, but what I am typing is making sense to me at the time I type it. I really enjoy D&D, and wish to make it a better game w/o 1500 house rules on the complications of magic. I am looking for a little bit of validation with what I perceive as a crippling lack of insight with how the PH spells would naturally influence the course of a medieval society. If Scry/Teleport/Kill is such an easy combo to pull off, what is to stop PCs and NPCs from doing it? If a Lyre of Building can accomplish such an amazing amount of labor, why not use them more? If buffing is so effective, why don't more character's do it?
Beyond violating the unspoken code between players and the DM not to use some powerful combos or spells, D&D game worlds should have more internal consistency. I'm stop writing to avoid any more ranting than I already have. Thanks for reading.
Ogrork the Mighty said:
Cheese factor I can live with. Metagame "deals" and irrationality I find more problematic.
King Blokey: "Valiant PCs, slay the vile necromancer"
PC: "Okay, we'll use Scry-Buff-Teleport"
King Blokey: "Um...you can't do that"
PC: "Why not? It's the surest way of stopping his evil horde triumphing over Goodtown and slaughtering 100,000 people"
King Blokey: "Um...because then he'll do it to us!"
PC: "Why doesn't he? He could have assassinated you long ago..."
etc. ad nauseam
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
strongbow said:
Again, take a look at the Permanented Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum. It's 100% Core-Rules-stop-scry-buff-teleport dead in its tracks strategy. It's your "house rule" divination-proof-room, but not a house rule.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
I don't know if my rules qualify as house rules, because they don't change any written mechanics, but rather negate tacit assumptions. They're listed on my House Rules page, though... anyway:
1) Teleportation is not quiet. Dimension door causes an audible "bamph" (Listen DC 5), teleport causes a thunderous boom (Listen DC -5), and plane shift results in an earth-shattering kaboom (Listen DC -15).
2) Teleportation is not always instant. Dimension door works as assumed in the books -- it is instant. Teleport takes 3 rounds to transport you, and the "lost time" is spent somewhere outside the Prime. Plane shift eats a full minute somewhere, but cross-planar events are wonky enough to not usually notice.
3) Pre-arrival is not silent. Teleport starts causing a loud buzzing at its point of destination on the round when it's cast (Listen DC 5), which grows louder the second round (Listen DC 0), until finally the traveler appears in the aforementioned boom.
4) Off-topic but related: likewise, levitate and fly do not negate Move Silently. Each makes a humming buzz that is exactly as loud as normal footsteps. By concentrating, one trained in stealth can muffle the sounds.
Basically, it seems to me that it's not a problem with the mechanics, but rather with the assumptions that underlie the effects. (Unless you count the above as mechanics changes, in which case I think it is a problem with the mechanics!
)
-- N
1) Teleportation is not quiet. Dimension door causes an audible "bamph" (Listen DC 5), teleport causes a thunderous boom (Listen DC -5), and plane shift results in an earth-shattering kaboom (Listen DC -15).
2) Teleportation is not always instant. Dimension door works as assumed in the books -- it is instant. Teleport takes 3 rounds to transport you, and the "lost time" is spent somewhere outside the Prime. Plane shift eats a full minute somewhere, but cross-planar events are wonky enough to not usually notice.
3) Pre-arrival is not silent. Teleport starts causing a loud buzzing at its point of destination on the round when it's cast (Listen DC 5), which grows louder the second round (Listen DC 0), until finally the traveler appears in the aforementioned boom.
4) Off-topic but related: likewise, levitate and fly do not negate Move Silently. Each makes a humming buzz that is exactly as loud as normal footsteps. By concentrating, one trained in stealth can muffle the sounds.
Basically, it seems to me that it's not a problem with the mechanics, but rather with the assumptions that underlie the effects. (Unless you count the above as mechanics changes, in which case I think it is a problem with the mechanics!
)-- N
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