Scry/Teleport/Mindblank High Level Intrigue

[strongbow]

Would you care to be more specific, Nail? I have personal experience with having a PC destroy armies with Control Winds (the kill part), as well as Scry/Buff/Teleport. I mention Control Winds as an efficient method to kill and then teleport away. Not all Teleport kill has to be against specific NPCs. I'm not extrapolating with what is possible here, I have dealt with/done it myself. I'll answer your criticisms if I can, but please be more specific.

 

[Nail]

Okey-dokey:

Scry-buff-teleport has three parts. Therefore there are three main ways to counter it:

Scry:

• There exist, both within the RAW and in 3rd party products, a range of spells that can either block the scrying, fool the scrying, and/or detect the scrying.
• The Scry requires a Will save, and many BBEGs have hefty Will saves.
• Simple, cheap, and mundane lead blocks all scrying, regardless of level. Leaded crystal windows, anyone?

Buff:

• Buffs take time to put up....and you'll want to be sure to put them up after you successfully scry. If the scry fails (once per day only!), you'd have wasted the buffs...and be vulnerable.
• Buffs are dispel-able, especially those done with potions, wands, and magic items (lowest possible caster level, after all). Ouch!

Teleport:

• There are spells to make your fortress teleport proof, within RAW.
• There are 3rd party products that have magic that redirects, blocks, etc.,....
• Teleport is an action....then the enemies get to go.

That's the on-topic part of the discussion, anyway. The point is: the combo is broke if you'd like....or not, if you'd like. What would you like?

As to the other points:
Of course high level magic is powerful, and piling high level spell after high level spell is bound to look amazing. As long as you keep in mind the fact that there are others out there, just as powerful (or more)....well, things look a bit more reasonable and balanced.

 

[strongbow]

A nice, reasoned response. Thank you Nail. My retorts:

1) Scry- You don't need to Scry to go take someone/thing out. Discern Location will thwart any means of blocking except Mind Blank. Mind Blank is not cheap. My point is here that while Mind Blank is the same level as Discern Location and provides absolute protection, such protection is not provided for a BBEG's minions. Discern Location enables the party to find the lieutenants and such that will not be protected.

2) Buff. Discern Location does not let the target know that it has been cast in relation to him. It has a ten minute cast time, during which others can buff and prepare as they see fit. Except for round/level spells, a high level spellcaster can cast all his/her minute per level buffs before casting Discern Location. Furthermore Greater Scrying has a one action cast time, but is relatively easy countered.

3)Teleport. You don't have to necessarily hit the enemy stronghold. A high level Control Winds will collapse it if aboveground, and I can think of a few ways to completely collapse an underground stronghold as well. So as long as you don't mind picking through rubble, you can take out a place in one fell swoop. Certainly these methods are not "sporting", but they are efficient. Instead of clearing the tower, you destroy the whole thing. Certainly there may be other considerations such as hostages, but sometimes you just want someone dead.

4)Initiative. DMs may handle this different ways, but I offer that Teleport should be treated as everyone's surprise round action, then regular init is rolled. This does not give undue credit to either side. I have seen DMs that give the teleporters surprise, and I have seen DMs that let the other side go as a quasi-antisurprise of which you mention. I do not wish to start a discussion about how initiative should be handled, as I feel that it is DM's priviledge to run it how he/she would like.

5)I would like to hear of more WOTC/3rd party spells to address this. So far someone has mentioned two from BoED. Any others, with the book they are from?

6)Thank you for your comments.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

3)Teleport. You don't have to necessarily hit the enemy stronghold. A high level Control Winds will collapse it if aboveground, and I can think of a few ways to completely collapse an underground stronghold as well. So as long as you don't mind picking through rubble, you can take out a place in one fell swoop. Certainly these methods are not "sporting", but they are efficient. Instead of clearing the tower, you destroy the whole thing. Certainly there may be other considerations such as hostages, but sometimes you just want someone dead.

Yes, being Chaotic Evil and very high level does have its advantages. No doubt.

 

[hong]

We used to talk about dowsing for drow cities by casting earthquake. You know you've found one when you suddenly go up a level.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

I know this isn't a core fix, but it could probably help a lot of other people, and I think I saw it on this board somewhere: try limiting teleports to only allow you to travel to places you've already been before. Even after a great big nerf like that, it's still a fantastic spell, and people would still use it often; it would just no longer be an absolute gimme.

 

[Nail]

A nice, reasoned response.

..and I appreciate the challenge of reasoned counters.

1) Scry- You don't need to Scry to go take someone/thing out. Discern Location will thwart any means of blocking except Mind Blank.

Discern Location is only useful if you have Greater Teleport; everything else requires that you've seen the spot at least once. So: we're no longer talking about a few mid-level spells being the beat-all meal ticket, are we? We're talking about a Wiz 15 and his cronies.....meaning his enemies are of approximately the same level and power (or higher). Mind Blank is an option to these BBEGs.

Discern Location doesn't let you know what the subject is doing. That could be a big deal, depending on how the BBEG works it. I'm thinking that Divinations and Communes from the BBEG could find out when/where the heroes will be arriving.

Discern location requires that you've seen the BBEG, or have an item that once belonged to it. That's a speed bump, at least.

Discern Location enables the party to find the lieutenants and such that will not be protected.

Of course. Nor will the PC's lieutenants be protected, etc. Moreover, the PCs actually have to track down the lieutenants....which sounds an awful lot like a normal high level adventure.

How do you find the BBEG's lieutenants, track them back to the BBEGs lair, and then take out the BBEG (all without alerting the BBEG that you're doing this)? This is NOT a one-step process.

2) Buff. Discern Location does not let the target know that it has been cast in relation to him. It has a ten minute cast time, during which others can buff and prepare as they see fit. Except for round/level spells, a high level spellcaster can cast all his/her minute per level buffs before casting Discern Location. Furthermore Greater Scrying has a one action cast time, but is relatively easy countered.

And all of these buffs can be stripped away with a Greater Dispel Magic, or even MD. After they teleport in, all of the strike team is in a small, convenient radius.

Even so: we're no longer taking about something you can do starting level 9, eh?

3)Teleport. You don't have to necessarily hit the enemy stronghold. A high level Control Winds will collapse it if aboveground,...

Depending on it's construction, yes. To do so to most BBEG lairs, we're talking Level 15 again...and only if they're not fortified. If they are: no damage, even from a tornado.

It's all well and good to destroy a large body of mooks....but really, at that level, it wasn't the mooks you were worried about.

Certainly these methods are not "sporting", but they are efficient. Instead of clearing the tower, you destroy the whole thing. Certainly there may be other considerations such as hostages, but sometimes you just want someone dead.

This is no longer "rules territory". Now we're talkin' about how the DM handles the campaign and the PCs world. Tons of ways to make this sort of "Kill 'em all - let God sort 'em out" attitude be a big problem for whoever tries it. Not least of which: It's Evil.

4)Initiative. DMs may handle this different ways, but I offer that Teleport should be treated as everyone's surprise round action, then regular init is rolled.

Maybe, maybe not. Again, no longer a "rules" problem, more of a "current situation dictates" problem.

 

[Nail]

Discern Location isn't very good, actually

I looked back over the description.....and Discern Location is a terrible, if not impossible, way to find and teleport to a BBEG or his minions.

So: no intrigue at all, really. Mindblank is unnecessary.

 

[Arksorn]

Here are some of my notes with references ph=player's handbook, sb=stronghold builders guidebook:

subject of scrying spell gets Will save, if successful he knows someone cast a spell on him (ph 177, c1). Subject with 12+ Int gets DC 20 Int check to notice sensor of any scry subschool spell (ph 173, c1). Sensor can be dispelled (or detected) as if it were an active spell (ph 173, c1). Lead sheeting blocks scry (assume most wealthy types have this in their residence as it only adds about 35% to the cost of a masonary wall or 20% to the cost of a hewn stone wall) (ph 173, c1) (sb 37). Magical protection (such as antimagic field, mind blank, or nondetection) blocks scry (ph 173, cl1). Must study area for 1 hour to teleport using “studied carefully” chances otherwise must use “viewed once” chances (debatable if you can go in while scrying due to text “you can currently see it,” but I rule no until I see an official clarification) (ph 293, c1).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I know this isn't a core fix, but it could probably help a lot of other people, and I think I saw it on this board somewhere: try limiting teleports to only allow you to travel to places you've already been before. Even after a great big nerf like that, it's still a fantastic spell, and people would still use it often; it would just no longer be an absolute gimme.

I think that is a workable approach.