Sealed Pages in Dragon--Contents inside!
- Thread starter Buttercup
- Start date
ColonelHardisson
What? Me Worry?
Re: A question about B.A.D.D.
Good call! I didn't even think of that. Duh for me.
Chroma said:
Good call! I didn't even think of that. Duh for me.
Heylel Teomim
First Post
.
Havent read the whole thread yet, if this is repetetive, skip it.
Nathaneal, you're worried about bad publicity... but that doesn't really exist. A sealed section just makes the logged off script kiddies who are picking up the magazine ooh and aah over it, and take it home to sneak it upstairs. 95% of parents who let their kids play dnd wont pay any attention, and the other 5% would freak if they knew their kid played dnd at all.
Anyone older ought to be able to handle it. Yeah, its gross. Frankly I dont find it very entertaining or useable in my dnd games. I just dont make necrophilia a priority
. However, some people do go alot farther with the splat factor in their games, and that's who WotC is writing to.
I like the maggot spell. I like the blood boil spell etc. Maggots have a certain symbolic rottenness that helps represent the disgusting depths a necromancer is willing to sink to, and boiling someone's blood is just well... it sounds cool. Sure makes Finger of Death seem tame.
Nothing about DnD is inoffensive to people who would cry out against it. If you sum it up, its pretty darn antisocial. A bunch of guys sit down in someone's house and spend the next several hours discussing theft, murder, the occasional bit of human consumption (giants etc eat people ya know), demonology, alchemy and sorcery. The TAMEST thing that happens in a dnd game is when someone steals something, and that's definitely frowned upon irl. Even a paladin is out shedding blood in the name of his god. A pagan one at that.
Heylel
Havent read the whole thread yet, if this is repetetive, skip it.
Nathaneal, you're worried about bad publicity... but that doesn't really exist. A sealed section just makes the logged off script kiddies who are picking up the magazine ooh and aah over it, and take it home to sneak it upstairs. 95% of parents who let their kids play dnd wont pay any attention, and the other 5% would freak if they knew their kid played dnd at all.
Anyone older ought to be able to handle it. Yeah, its gross. Frankly I dont find it very entertaining or useable in my dnd games. I just dont make necrophilia a priority
. However, some people do go alot farther with the splat factor in their games, and that's who WotC is writing to.I like the maggot spell. I like the blood boil spell etc. Maggots have a certain symbolic rottenness that helps represent the disgusting depths a necromancer is willing to sink to, and boiling someone's blood is just well... it sounds cool. Sure makes Finger of Death seem tame.
Nothing about DnD is inoffensive to people who would cry out against it. If you sum it up, its pretty darn antisocial. A bunch of guys sit down in someone's house and spend the next several hours discussing theft, murder, the occasional bit of human consumption (giants etc eat people ya know), demonology, alchemy and sorcery. The TAMEST thing that happens in a dnd game is when someone steals something, and that's definitely frowned upon irl. Even a paladin is out shedding blood in the name of his god. A pagan one at that.
Heylel
hellbender
First Post
Well, back on topic, the sealed pages aren't anything, just a gimmick. Monte Cook's article on evil and prestige class are what I would have tossed in the sealed section, if anything. The monster prestige classes are just a continuation of a previous article, and not particularly mature or gory.
Cook's article alone turned me off the BoVD, as according to his assessment of the game, I play a Standard game, and really, there is no need to extrapolate upon evil in my game beyond what I already do. Obviously, some people prefer a darker game, I am content with my 'good old times' style of gaming, as is the group.
h
Cook's article alone turned me off the BoVD, as according to his assessment of the game, I play a Standard game, and really, there is no need to extrapolate upon evil in my game beyond what I already do. Obviously, some people prefer a darker game, I am content with my 'good old times' style of gaming, as is the group.
h
Mark Plemmons
Explorer
I suppose this is kind of a plug as well as a response, but it just seems appropriate to me.
I'm really surprised how much debate the mature audiences' substance is causing. Is it just because it's one book filled such topics? Would it be more palatable if small "mature bits"
were placed throughout a wider variety of books?
Here's my example (and I guess where the plug comes in), Kingdoms of Kalamar (which I'm obviously more familiar with ) has always been written for a mature audience.
- The evil deities are EVIL. For example, there's the Vicelord.
THE VICELORD, THE INSULTER, HIS IMMENSENESS, ABASER, THE INDOLENT ONE, MASTER OF DEPRAVITY, SLAYER OF MORALS, VIOLATOR OF THE PURE, THE RAVISHER, SODOMIZER OF ALL
Almnas (Brandobian)
Jy (Dejy)
Lamako (Kalamaran)
Zohszi (Svimohzish)
Larr (Fhokki)
Foobia (Reanaarese)
SPHERES OF INFLUENCE: Vice, sloth
DOMAINS: Animal, Chaos, Evil, Trickery
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SYMBOL: Varies regionally. Two of the more popular symbols are an image of a male boar wearing a crown and a pure white pearl impaled on a brown spike.
DIVINE FOCUS: Boar genitals or tusks wrapped in hair taken from the shaved head of a recent convert
UNHOLY DAYS: The unholiest day for this perverted religion is the first day of Autumn. On this day above all others the Vicelords continuously engage in all possible vices. Any local festival that presents the opportunity for large scale carousing on the part of the masses becomes an unholy day for the Vicelords. If the festival is in the honor of another deity, the Vicelords will seek to pollute the festival through their depraved antics.
PLACE OF WORSHIP: Underground in cities or towns. Temples dedicated to the Master of Depravity are little more than brothels.
COLOR: Brown
ANIMAL: Male boar
APPEARANCE: His Immenseness often takes the form of a large animal, although the Slayer of Morals rarely takes the same form twice. In any guise, the Violator of the Pure always appears as an incredibly obese, sexually aroused male.
CHURCH: Known as the House of Vice, however, there is no formal church order.
CLERGY: Known simply as the Vicelords or the Insulters
RAIMENT: A cleric’s whole body must be clean shaven. While in public these clerics wear simple brown togas, although sudden and complete exposure is not at all uncommon. Insulters wear bronze skullcaps that double as bowls for eating and drinking. They perform rituals and sacrifices in the nude.
SACRIFICE & FREQUENCY: Young virgins, male or female, are defiled then converted or murdered. New converts are sought after continuously. Clerics of other religions are the Ravisher’s preferred targets.
ADVANCEMENT: Advancement is granted by superiors, supposedly through meritorious acts and number of converts. Underlings are generally forced to serve their superiors in all ways. However, since the House of Vice has no formal church doctrine, each local chapterhouse has its own traditions and customs regarding the rate of advancement, duties and titles held.
- Then there's the RACIAL tensions between the humans and humanoids.
- There are SLAVER nations, and SLAVERS, detailed in both the campaign setting and the KoK Player's Guide.
- And evil occurs in the adventures, too. In Deathright, the PCs may end up searching for missing children who have been kidnapped by evil clerics of the Harvester of Souls. Most have been tortured and killed for use as ritual components.
And the list goes on...
So far, no one's really minded. But if we took out all of this stuff and put it in one single book, I wonder what the response would be?
===
Mark Plemmons
Kenzer and Company
www.kenzerco.com
===
I'm really surprised how much debate the mature audiences' substance is causing. Is it just because it's one book filled such topics? Would it be more palatable if small "mature bits"
were placed throughout a wider variety of books?Here's my example (and I guess where the plug comes in), Kingdoms of Kalamar (which I'm obviously more familiar with
) has always been written for a mature audience.- The evil deities are EVIL. For example, there's the Vicelord.
THE VICELORD, THE INSULTER, HIS IMMENSENESS, ABASER, THE INDOLENT ONE, MASTER OF DEPRAVITY, SLAYER OF MORALS, VIOLATOR OF THE PURE, THE RAVISHER, SODOMIZER OF ALL
Almnas (Brandobian)
Jy (Dejy)
Lamako (Kalamaran)
Zohszi (Svimohzish)
Larr (Fhokki)
Foobia (Reanaarese)
SPHERES OF INFLUENCE: Vice, sloth
DOMAINS: Animal, Chaos, Evil, Trickery
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SYMBOL: Varies regionally. Two of the more popular symbols are an image of a male boar wearing a crown and a pure white pearl impaled on a brown spike.
DIVINE FOCUS: Boar genitals or tusks wrapped in hair taken from the shaved head of a recent convert
UNHOLY DAYS: The unholiest day for this perverted religion is the first day of Autumn. On this day above all others the Vicelords continuously engage in all possible vices. Any local festival that presents the opportunity for large scale carousing on the part of the masses becomes an unholy day for the Vicelords. If the festival is in the honor of another deity, the Vicelords will seek to pollute the festival through their depraved antics.
PLACE OF WORSHIP: Underground in cities or towns. Temples dedicated to the Master of Depravity are little more than brothels.
COLOR: Brown
ANIMAL: Male boar
APPEARANCE: His Immenseness often takes the form of a large animal, although the Slayer of Morals rarely takes the same form twice. In any guise, the Violator of the Pure always appears as an incredibly obese, sexually aroused male.
CHURCH: Known as the House of Vice, however, there is no formal church order.
CLERGY: Known simply as the Vicelords or the Insulters
RAIMENT: A cleric’s whole body must be clean shaven. While in public these clerics wear simple brown togas, although sudden and complete exposure is not at all uncommon. Insulters wear bronze skullcaps that double as bowls for eating and drinking. They perform rituals and sacrifices in the nude.
SACRIFICE & FREQUENCY: Young virgins, male or female, are defiled then converted or murdered. New converts are sought after continuously. Clerics of other religions are the Ravisher’s preferred targets.
ADVANCEMENT: Advancement is granted by superiors, supposedly through meritorious acts and number of converts. Underlings are generally forced to serve their superiors in all ways. However, since the House of Vice has no formal church doctrine, each local chapterhouse has its own traditions and customs regarding the rate of advancement, duties and titles held.
- Then there's the RACIAL tensions between the humans and humanoids.
- There are SLAVER nations, and SLAVERS, detailed in both the campaign setting and the KoK Player's Guide.
- And evil occurs in the adventures, too. In Deathright, the PCs may end up searching for missing children who have been kidnapped by evil clerics of the Harvester of Souls. Most have been tortured and killed for use as ritual components.
And the list goes on...
So far, no one's really minded. But if we took out all of this stuff and put it in one single book, I wonder what the response would be?
===
Mark Plemmons
Kenzer and Company
www.kenzerco.com
===
shadow
First Post
I am just a little disturbed by the sealed section of the Dragon Magazine. Although I'm aware that D&D in general contains many "mature" elements such as inherent violence, many "icky" monsters, etc, I'm afraid that BoVD will cross the fine line of good taste. Many of the splatbooks already have had dark elements in them (Acolyte of the skin and Pale Lord prestige classes from T&B, The Bane of the Infidels from MotW) so I can hardly see how a "mature" book can go much further and still be in good taste. I'm hardly one to criticize others and to try to impose moral standards, but there exists a fine line between what is appropriate and what is just perverted. I think that certain spells in the sealed section crossed that line. I really don't want copulation with corpses in my game.
Certain people may say that such things add "realism" or "moral conflict" to the game, or make villians "more three dimensional". This is just an excuse to defend filth. The core rules alone are perfectly fine for a mature campaign. The "maturity level" of the campaign is set by the DM and players, not a rule set. Rules for spells involving necrophilia and rape aren't mature, they're just sick.
Also I'm aware that BoVD is not a core book. With Eminem and computer games being the threat of middle class America, I doubt that BoVD will be much of a threat to D&D (which is still relegated to a fringe hobby). However, I dislike the idea of such a product carrying the official D&D logo. I dislike the idea of necrophilia, sexual perversion, and other vileness being officially associated and sanctioned by D&D. Call me a cynic, but I'm afraid that the success of BoVD could signal a trend for WotC. In the future we could see more and more D&D products going the way of the BoVD, featuring all kinds of perversion and sickness. I really don't want to see all the future books detailing all kinds of vileness.
I'll temporarily suspend judgment on BoVD since it isn't out yet, and I'm aware that the sealed section of Dragon wasn't written by Monte. However, if the sealed section was anything like content of BoVD, I'm going to be very disapointed.
Certain people may say that such things add "realism" or "moral conflict" to the game, or make villians "more three dimensional". This is just an excuse to defend filth. The core rules alone are perfectly fine for a mature campaign. The "maturity level" of the campaign is set by the DM and players, not a rule set. Rules for spells involving necrophilia and rape aren't mature, they're just sick.
Also I'm aware that BoVD is not a core book. With Eminem and computer games being the threat of middle class America, I doubt that BoVD will be much of a threat to D&D (which is still relegated to a fringe hobby). However, I dislike the idea of such a product carrying the official D&D logo. I dislike the idea of necrophilia, sexual perversion, and other vileness being officially associated and sanctioned by D&D. Call me a cynic, but I'm afraid that the success of BoVD could signal a trend for WotC. In the future we could see more and more D&D products going the way of the BoVD, featuring all kinds of perversion and sickness. I really don't want to see all the future books detailing all kinds of vileness.
I'll temporarily suspend judgment on BoVD since it isn't out yet, and I'm aware that the sealed section of Dragon wasn't written by Monte. However, if the sealed section was anything like content of BoVD, I'm going to be very disapointed.
Incenjucar
Legend
Quickly: If you have an issue with what you percieve of my opinion of BDSM, or anything else, -email me-, and I'll be happy to explain myself. As this wasn't the topic of this forum, I didn't go in to a full explanation of my point of view: Please keep your knee-jerk reactions off of these boards. Thank you.
As for the BoVD, it really comes down to 'what sells'. This is an experiment on the part of WotC, likely based on the Black Dog books which, I have a feeling, are selling relatively well. Yes, the book is full of icky gross stuff, if the sealed section is any evidence, but, as others have stated, vote with your wallet. I, myself, will peruse the thing before I decide on whether or not I wish to purchase it. If its just a pointless book full of 'boobies' and useless gore, I won't bother, if, on the other hand, it has good ideas, useful information, and a nice balance of information and 'fluff', I may well purchase it, if nothing else, because its good to have examples of evil when writing fantasy fiction, and the sort. As is, we really don't know what will and will not be in that book, so, worries of this sort should be saved until October, when we have the pudding for the proof.
And remember: They won't do this again unless people want them to.
As for the BoVD, it really comes down to 'what sells'. This is an experiment on the part of WotC, likely based on the Black Dog books which, I have a feeling, are selling relatively well. Yes, the book is full of icky gross stuff, if the sealed section is any evidence, but, as others have stated, vote with your wallet. I, myself, will peruse the thing before I decide on whether or not I wish to purchase it. If its just a pointless book full of 'boobies' and useless gore, I won't bother, if, on the other hand, it has good ideas, useful information, and a nice balance of information and 'fluff', I may well purchase it, if nothing else, because its good to have examples of evil when writing fantasy fiction, and the sort. As is, we really don't know what will and will not be in that book, so, worries of this sort should be saved until October, when we have the pudding for the proof.
And remember: They won't do this again unless people want them to.
Last edited:
The Harbinger
Explorer
I'd agree. This has turned into an argument on morality rather than a discussion. I have the mag and read through it during breakfast this morning. I plan on doing what I wish more people did - take what I like, leave what I don't, and try not to sermonize about it. Make a stand, but don't be a statue. <shrugs>
Similar Threads
