Sell me on Arcana Evolved.

[lukelightning]

For example, there's no magic missile as it's "too good".

I suspect that another reason magic missile wasn't included is because it is a D&D iconic spell, even more than fireball.

 

[Michael Tree]

If someone isn't happy with the feat requirement of exotic spells, one thing that may work well (of course, this is off the top of my head without playtesting), would be to reward each caster with a single exotic spell selection every fifth level or so.

There's also a magic item in AE that gives a spellcaster access to an exotic spell. They're called Amulets of Spell Knowledge, or something to that effect. They cost spell level squared x 1000, which makes them rather cheap for low level spells.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

True. It only screams "Pick me if you want to play a priest of this religion!"

I have trouble seeing that as bad, sorry.

2 of the skills to which the Feat's bonuses apply have a somewhat negative implication in this context: Bluff and Intimidate. The others, Diplomacy and Gather Info, are not as contextually negative. IM(not so)HO, there's more to being a priest than manipulating your fellow believers.

In another thread, I presented a detailed discussion of what it means to be a clergyman of various kinds- this is not the appropriate thread in which to rehash it (especially since I still really love AU/AE)- but suffice it to say that this Feat does not do the role any justice.

 

[SSquirrel]

2 of the skills to which the Feat's bonuses apply have a somewhat negative implication in this context: Bluff and Intimidate. The others, Diplomacy and Gather Info, are not as contextually negative. IM(not so)HO, there's more to being a priest than manipulating your fellow believers.

So you've never watched a televangelist milk his followers, telling blatant lies which they freely believe b/c he's plying their faith? Or you can't imagine a time when a Priest might have reason to cow his followers (or someone of their religion at least)? Invite a Priest of the appropriate religion into a police interrogation. He can drop hints about some of the horrible things awaiting if the prisoner doesn't comply. He's trying to help the guy avoid really painful things and the believer might be swayed by his fear of the things the Priest brings up.

Just a coupla examples. I don't see a problem w/no priest class. Then again, I'm glad the classes in AU/AE are completely different from the PHB ones heh.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So you've never watched a televangelist milk his followers, telling blatant lies which they freely believe b/c he's plying their faith?

Certainly, which is why I said:

IM(not so)HO, there's more to being a priest than manipulating your fellow believers.

emphasis added.

I would also make a distinction between a con-man (your example) and a true man of the cloth, while the AU/AE feat makes no such distinction.

Or you can't imagine a time when a Priest might have reason to cow his followers (or someone of their religion at least)? Invite a Priest of the appropriate religion into a police interrogation. He can drop hints about some of the horrible things awaiting if the prisoner doesn't comply.

Sure. But speaking as one with experience with the prison system of TX (after a little time in the public defender's offices of Dallas), you don't usually get a priest of your faith other than for an execution- you typically get whomever is handy and ministering to the prisoners on that day, be he Priest, Rabbi, Shaman or Llama.

Priests aren't merely fear-mongerers, nor do they only affect their believers. Historically speaking, they also do things like try to convert others to the faith (in a variety of ways- sometimes by threat of force). They are councelors. They are judges. They are investigators. They are educators, scribes, farmers, winemakers and carpenters.

Does this vary from faith to faith? Of course- and once again, its a flexibility not recognized in a feat that only allows the PC to mess with the minds and lives of his fellow believers.

 

[Staffan]

Priests aren't merely fear-mongerers, nor do they only affect their believers. Historically speaking, they also do things like try to convert others to the faith (in a variety of ways- sometimes by threat of force). They are councelors. They are judges. They are investigators. They are educators, scribes, farmers, winemakers and carpenters.

And those things are what the character's other skills are for. The feat gives you the benefits of priestly authority, which is mostly a social thing and related to people of the same faith.

That said, I have this vague idea of an AE setting where the bad guys have priests wielding certain hidden magics, in which case the Priest feat would also grant access to a handful of exotic spells. Or possibly make that a different feat, with the Priest feat as a prereq.

 

[SSquirrel]

So you have other skills that do a good job of convincing people, swaying them to your point of view. Teaching them about your god, etc etc. Many options in the current ruleset. If you're a priest, do taht mean someone who believes in no god or an opposing god should have a more positive reaction to you just b/c you're a priest? No. If it's a priest of YOUR faith tho, you likely do accord a bit more respect and such their way.

 

[SWBaxter]

IM(not so)HO, there's more to being a priest than manipulating your fellow believers.

Anytime I've had a player interested in a priestly character (in any game system), we've sat down and gone over what it means in terms of the way they'd play the character, then look at relevant game mechanics. While I agree there should be more to being a priest than just taking a single feat, the question here is whether it's a useful feat or not, and I think it is. That's an entirely separate question from asking whether there's anything else the PC should do or take to properly fulfill whatever role they envision.

So far as "negative" skills go, that's entirely up to the way the character is played. There are plenty of fictional examples of priest characters performing actions that could be modelled by Bluff or (especially) Intimidate checks that are entirely within appropriate behaviour for a priest. If your PCs never plan to convince a devout criminal to surrender to the city guard or cajole a devout noble into allowing the priest to do what needs to be done to save a village then those bonuses aren't very useful to you; my PCs have done such things, and were happy to have another bonus to stack, thankyouverymuch.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Like I said earlier, guys- I really don't like the Priest feat- I think its underpowered and only covers a certain narrow interpretation of what it means to be a priest.

You have failed to convince me otherwise.

And also like I said before, I don't think this is the appropriate thread for this discussion. My complaint about the Priest feat is a minor quibble at best- there's no need to hijack this thread further.

 

[catsclaw227]

And also like I said before, I don't think this is the appropriate thread for this discussion. My complaint about the Priest feat is a minor quibble at best- there's no need to hijack this thread further.

You are right about this. But I do have a comment about AU/AE and priests that is still in topic.

It appears that Monte attempted to smash one of the sacred cows of D&D - separation of arcane and divine spells. IMHO, I believe that where you get your spells is as much a flavor and role-playing element as anything and if the player and the DM decides (and the PC believes) that they derive their power from their god, then it doesn't require a mechanic to say it is true.

Unfortunately many of players that I have known RPed the cleric more as a field medic/buff-caster/fighter with a mace. Playing a Priest is quite different and game mechanics are a tough way to teach this.

I am not sure if taking the divine/arcane distinction out of the equation will solve this problem (or if that was even one of the intentions), but I believe it was a noble risk. Taking on a D&D sacred cow requires some nads.