[Semi-rant] Why is two-weapon fighting more defensive than sword and board?

[Celtavian]

re

It's funny that in D&D the two least effective forms of fighitng, two-hander and TWF, are the two most effective forms of fighting. If you were on a real life battlefield, it would be much better to wield a single weapon with a shield or nothing in the off hand.

I have to agree. Improved Buckler Defense is too good to pass up. I'm glad someone pointed it out. I had passed over it. It wouldn't have been so bad in the old rules when a buckler only worked against 1 opponent per round. In third edition even if you are surrounded by 8 people that little buckler provides defense against them all. Perfect for TWF in the same way that almost every Two-hander fighter should obtain an animated shield.

 

[Anubis the Doomseer]

The thing is, if you're a fighter, you have the feats. If you're actively trying to build a defensive fighter, and take defensive feats, shouldn't sword and board be the best option?

It is - it's the easiest and fastest way to get AC without trying to use 3rd party and non-setting feats out of their context.

Rule 0 is your friend.

 

[Staffan]

Perfect for TWF in the same way that almost every Two-hander fighter should obtain an animated shield.

That's another thing that hurts sword&boarders: animated shields. Animated is an ability worth +2, which is the AC granted by a heavy shield. Basically, that means that people using both hands with their weapons only get an AC that's 2 points less than someone using sword/shield. I will probably houserule animated to either be a +4 ability or remove it altogether.

 

[Hardhead]

That's another thing that hurts sword&boarders: animated shields. Animated is an ability worth +2, which is the AC granted by a heavy shield. Basically, that means that people using both hands with their weapons only get an AC that's 2 points less than someone using sword/shield. I will probably houserule animated to either be a +4 ability or remove it altogether.

I agree. Animatd shields are our enemy. Every single fighter in all of my campaigns has had one.

Having the shield add cover instead of an armor bonus helps that a loooong way IMC. Cover is all sorts of goodness, and that's basically what a shield is....a little wall that you carry around.

I like that rule alot. You have to get rid of animated shields first, though.

It is - it's the easiest and fastest way to get AC without trying to use 3rd party and non-setting feats out of their context. Rule 0 is your friend.

I shouldn't have to Rule 0 WotC-published stuff, though.

 

[Malcolm]

Sword & Board (love how that carried over from DAoC) can be effective and just as viscious (moreso imho) with the right feats.
Remember, your shield can also be used as a weapon...

Example:
1.) Two Weapon Fighting & Shield Expert - smack them and keep yer AC.
2.) Power Attack & Improved Shield Bash (DoF) - Now your shield attack counts as an improved bull rush, invoking no attacks of opportunity.
3.) Shield Charge (DoF) - double dmg when charging.
4.) For Paladin/Fighter types: add Divine Might, Divine Shield (yikes!).
5.) Expertise for Defense.
6.) Improved 2-Wpn Fighting, Greater, etc. etc. - if you really want the full monty.
7.) Throw Improved Trip & Knockdown on top for some really ugly combos.

I see this build as crushing the 2-wpn fighter each time:
1.) Full round attack, end sequence with Imp. Shield Bash for Knockback (opponent is now 5' back), and then step back 5' (opponent now 10' away and loses Full round attack if they want to engage). With Knockdown = icky.

 

[Malcolm]

<double post hacked out>

 

[Enkhidu]

Hardhead, would you still have the same issues with sword and board style if the designers had allowed shields to count toward touch attacks?

 

[Pseudonym]

Sword & Board (love how that carried over from DAoC)

Do you mean to imply that DAoC was the source of that term? It predates that by a long shot. I've heard it in SCA and LARP circles well before any MMORPG came out.

 

[Hardhead]

Hardhead, would you still have the same issues with sword and board style if the designers had allowed shields to count toward touch attacks?

I'm not sure. It would certainly help.