Shade Race from Dragon #307...ECL +2!?!

[kreynolds]

So when the party isn't in combat, the fighter types are meant to just stand off to the side and wait until another fight starts?

Basically, yeah. A straight-up fighter, i.e. a character with nothing but fighter levels, won't care at all about anything but his class skills, and even then, most aren't that important. The noteable exceptions are climb, swim, and ride. Fighters...well, they fight. That's what they excel at. The system limits them to that, and for good reason.

I know it's a matter of taste, but I don't see how it could be fun to play a character who contributes nothing except fighting.

Well, most of the fun I have is all about the roleplay, not the rolling of the dice. Even still, that's why I rarely ever play a straight up fighter. Come to think of it, there isn't a single person in my entire gaming group, aside from myself, that is playing a straight up fighter, and we've got a whole lot of characters between us. I've only just now started playing a straight-up fighter, but I can tell you this, the roleplay with that character suits me just fine, enough so that I don't feel the need to multiclass him or anything.

I do agree that it is certainly a matter of taste, but taste still doesn't change the fact that Intelligence trully is a dump stat for fighters (obviously less so than Charisma).

Also, don't your GMs make you roleplay poor Int and Cha stats?

More or less, yeah. But no more so than we expect one another to truly roleplay that 28 Intelligence, which I assure you, is quite improbable, if not impossible.

 

[Pax]

I don't know if that's the best way to do it. If you assign each ability point a +0.3 rather than a +0.1, then you get completely different results, so it seems kind of arbitrary. Also, a +40 to STR would only be a +4 LA.

I'd play an Level 1 ECL 5 Fighter with a 59 STR over a Level 5 Fighter with a 19 STR.

Bonus^2 times (however many points) would seem to be better. The more extreme the + or -, the more it impacts the LA of the creature.

 

[Sollir Furryfoot]

Yes, Dragon Magazine truly does not know how to assign ECLs...

have you even *seen* the Wilora on page 34?

Compared to the Shade, it's also ECL +2 (on page 30), and it grants:

- Size: Tiny
- +5 natural armor
- natural weapon (claw)
- Hypnotic Song
- Memory Snatching Gaze
- Alternate Form (polymorph self at will at night!)
- SR 12

and...drum roll... +10 to dex, +10 to int, +8 to wis, +10 to cha (at a measly -6 to Str)

And they have wayyyy too many feats as well.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Basically, yeah. A straight-up fighter, i.e. a character with nothing but fighter levels, won't care at all about anything but his class skills, and even then, most aren't that important. The noteable exceptions are climb, swim, and ride. Fighters...well, they fight. That's what they excel at. The system limits them to that, and for good reason.

I'd agree with that being for a good reason if rogues who are on the oppsoite end of the skill spectrum had to sit around and do nothing in fights if they were straight rogues. But no their competent fighters overall thanks to sneak attacks so the argument that a class that is only moderetly better at fighting overall should suck butt out of a fight fails for me. Though I think this is for another thread, unless you don't mind the hijacking.

 

[kreynolds]

Though I think this is for another thread, unless you don't mind the hijacking.

Actually, I don't have a clue as to what you were trying to say.

 

[Storm Raven]

Compared to the Shade, it's also ECL +2 (on page 30), and it grants:

- Size: Tiny
- +5 natural armor
- natural weapon (claw)
- Hypnotic Song
- Memory Snatching Gaze
- Alternate Form (polymorph self at will at night!)
- SR 12

and...drum roll... +10 to dex, +10 to int, +8 to wis, +10 to cha (at a measly -6 to Str)

And they have wayyyy too many feats as well.

Umm, try a +2 natural armor bonus. And that claw attack does dagger damage, which isn't much of a benefit. Also, the tiny size is as much a hindrance as a help, any weapons it can use are going to do negligible damage.

 

[treefrog]

Umm, try a +2 natural armor bonus. And that claw attack does dagger damage, which isn't much of a benefit. Also, the tiny size is as much a hindrance as a help, any weapons it can use are going to do negligible damage.

R U seriously trying to defend a + 32 bonus to stats (possibly weighted down to a + 27 using the charisma = .5 everything else) with a lot of other stuff as +2 ECL?.
Or was that some kind of kneejerk reation before you really thougth about the stat adjustments?
Or is it an attempt to see how many people respond to your post? (Treefrog is a sucker ... Treeforg is a sucker...)

 

[Storm Raven]

R U seriously trying to defend a + 32 bonus to stats (possibly weighted down to a + 27 using the charisma = .5 everything else) with a lot of other stuff as +2 ECL?.
Or was that some kind of kneejerk reation before you really thougth about the stat adjustments?

No, I was just pointing out that the "benefits" listed are not that great (and not exactly what they were stated to be). It probably isn't a +2 ECL creature, but it doesn't have a +5 natural armor bonus, and it's claw attack isn't anything I'd worry about. A lot of its other abilities aren't that useful for long either: the hypnotic song has a low save DC, and won't be of use for long, as does the memory snatching gaze. The alternate form is limtied to nighttime. I hope you don't have any encounters by day.

 

[treefrog]

No, I was just pointing out that the "benefits" listed are not that great (and not exactly what they were stated to be). It probably isn't a +2 ECL creature, but it doesn't have a +5 natural armor bonus, and it's claw attack isn't anything I'd worry about. A lot of its other abilities aren't that useful for long either: the hypnotic song has a low save DC, and won't be of use for long, as does the memory snatching gaze. The alternate form is limtied to nighttime. I hope you don't have any encounters by day.

It has
2 natural armor
+10 to Dex,
+ 10 to Int
+ 10 to Cha
+ 8 to Wia
- 6 to str.
That is seriously wrong as a ECL 2
If you don't like the low dc special abilities you don't have to use them and you are still way way way ahead of the game. You don't have to look at the polymorph as useless during the day with these stat bonuses you can think of it as a useful bonus at night.

 

[Quixon]

For the record the Wilora has a CHALLENGE RATING of 2, NOT a ECL of 2. They are not the same thing.