Shadowdancer's Hide in plain Sight

[SorroW]

Well, yesterday a player played an Shadowdancer for the first time in our group and the ability "Hide in plain Sight" really bugs me.

How much can he move around when hidden?
Is it meant to be an "invisibility"?
What does a shadow mean? Is it any shadow not cast be himself of any size?

How do you play this?

 

[Thanee]

Heh. It's one of those abilities, which really could have used a bit more explanation.

Well, here's what I do....

I see the shadowdancer's ability as a mythical connection to the plane of shadows (or just a mythical connection to "shadows" in general). When using HiPS "shadow stuff" is drawn from the plane (or simply created out of "shadow") via the connection to a natural shadow within reach to hide the shadowdancer. This "shadow stuff" lets the shadowdancer apply the Hide skill (it grants concealment, or whatever, this is not really important other than, that it is that magical part of the ability, which creates what is necessary to actually hide, and what the shadowdancer does not need otherwise). It's similar, but not equal to Invisibility.

- The shadowdancer can hide on a spot in the open, if there is a shadow within 10 ft. (it does not have to be big enough to actually hide the shadowdancer, but must be reasonable large... like a square-foot or whatever). This looks like the shadowdancer fades into shadow and vanish.

- The shadowdancer can use Hide while moving as normal (with the appropriate penalties, see the Hide skill), as long as there is always a shadow within 10 ft.

- True Seeing reveals the shadowdancer, since the HiPS ability is supernatural and therefore magical in nature. Only by using the Hide skill normally with natural cover or physical concealment (darkness does not suffice) allows to trump True Seeing.

- When attacking (in an obvious way), the shadowdancer is also revealed as normal when hiding, there is no way to avoid this, except using the sniping rules. However, the shadowdancer can attack (standard action) and then hide again (move action (see below), with a -20 penalty - changed my opinion here, see THIS thread for explanation), which is obviously superior to using the sniping rules, since movement is allowed in addition to the attack (with sniping the move action is spent without getting to move), because the shadowdancer can use the Hide skill under observation.

Also you always need to spend at least a move action to hide. This can be combined with normal movement, that is you can move up to your speed and hide with one move action (penalties apply, if you move more than half your speed). Hiding itself is not an action, but part of the move action.

I do not allow (except for extremely rare and obscure circumstances) hiding as part of an attack, full-attack or charge action.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Sheng Long Gradilla]

Well, yesterday a player played an Shadowdancer for the first time in our group and the ability "Hide in plain Sight" really bugs me.

If memory serves, the ranger from v3.5 also has it. I assume you are playing v3.0 then...

How much can he move around when hidden?

You should have a close look at the Hide skill for an answer.

Is it meant to be an "invisibility"?

No, it is just a supernatural ability that allows the shadowdancer to use the Hide skill even without cover or concealment and while someone is watching, with the condition that there has to be a shadow to "hide in". Having some cover or concealment and not being observed is mandatory if you want to use the Hide skill and don't have this ability.

What does a shadow mean? Is it any shadow not cast be himself of any size?

I guess so. It's a supernatural ability after all.

**Edit** Well, thinking again, *any* shadow of *any* size is too much. I guess it's at the DM's own discretion. I do this in a case by case basis, and am very arbitrary on which shadow works and which doesn't. Since there's no rule and it's hard to define without trouble, I think it must be left to the DM's arbitration.

How do you play this?

Well, I just take it that when the shadowdancer is in a shadow or near a shadow, he can hide, even when someone is watching, that's all. He can even hide in the shadow of some other character, so I keep track of the direction where the shadows are cast and the length of the shadows; that makes the sneak attack and shadow jump combination interesting.

 

[Klaus]

This reminds me of a Suicide Squad comic where Bronze Tiger has to kill some dude who's in a room at the end of a brightly lit corridor.

Enchantress tells him "Be careful, there aren't any shadows in there."

Bronze Tiger: "I make my own shadows."

 

[UltimaGabe]

- True Seeing reveals the shadowdancer, since the HiPS ability is supernatural and therefore magical in nature. Only by using the Hide skill normally with natural cover or physical concealment (darkness does not suffice) allows to trump True Seeing.

I'd be strongly inclined to disagree. Keep in mind that Hide in Plain Sight is not an illusion- in fact, it's extremely mundane. All it does is allow a player to use the Hide skill without physical cover- the "shadow" crap is all flavor text. Nowhere in the True Seeing description does it say that it penetrates supernatural uses of skills- and that's all that Hide in Plain Sight is. According to the PHB, True Seeing doesn't allow you to see people that are "simply hiding"- and if you think that True Seeing sees through Hide in Plain Sight, you might as well let True Seeing see through Cloaks of Elvenkind and the like, since they're more magical and illusory than Hide in Plain Sight.

 

[TheEvil]

I'd be strongly inclined to disagree. Keep in mind that Hide in Plain Sight is not an illusion- in fact, it's extremely mundane. All it does is allow a player to use the Hide skill without physical cover- the "shadow" crap is all flavor text. Nowhere in the True Seeing description does it say that it penetrates supernatural uses of skills- and that's all that Hide in Plain Sight is. According to the PHB, True Seeing doesn't allow you to see people that are "simply hiding"- and if you think that True Seeing sees through Hide in Plain Sight, you might as well let True Seeing see through Cloaks of Elvenkind and the like, since they're more magical and illusory than Hide in Plain Sight.

Given that a Shadow Dancer's HiPS ability is supernatural, I would allow True Seeing to see through it. I say this as someone who plays Shadow Dancers.

 

[SorroW]

Heh. It's one of those abilities, which really could have used a bit more explanation.

Thanks for the help. I think it will work better next session With some updates.

/SorroW

 

[Thanee]

I'd be strongly inclined to disagree. Keep in mind that Hide in Plain Sight is not an illusion- in fact, it's extremely mundane. All it does is allow a player to use the Hide skill without physical cover- the "shadow" crap is all flavor text. Nowhere in the True Seeing description does it say that it penetrates supernatural uses of skills- and that's all that Hide in Plain Sight is.

(Su) = Magic.

According to the PHB, True Seeing doesn't allow you to see people that are "simply hiding" ...

Correct... but is a shadowdancer "simply hiding"? I don't think so.

It's supernatural... that hardly qualifies as "simple".

... and if you think that True Seeing sees through Hide in Plain Sight, you might as well let True Seeing see through Cloaks of Elvenkind and the like, since they're more magical and illusory than Hide in Plain Sight.

No, there's a very big difference here. If you use an item to boost your skill and then hide in a mundane way, you still are hidden behind some physical object.

The shadowdancer, however, could stand right in front of the observer with True Seeing in a completely plain and open space. How exactly should the shadowdancer hide there in a mundane way?

The shadowdancer is hidden behind magic. The use of the skill might be as mundane as any regular use, but the "cover/concealment replacement", which HiPS offers, clearly is not. And that is what True Seeing negates, IMHO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Tellerve]

Thanee-

Would you allow a shadowdancer to come out of hiding and attack and go back into hiding with a spring attack, and assuming he is using the insuing movement to get back to within 10' of shadow?

Tellerve

 

[Thanee]

Yes, I think so.

It's really quite similar to what I have written above... attack/move+hide.

I would, however, count the whole movement (before and after the attack) when figuring out penalties to the Hide check.

Bye
Thanee