Shadowdancer's Hide in plain Sight

[UltimaGabe]

The shadowdancer is hidden behind magic. The use of the skill might be as mundane as any regular use, but the "cover/concealment replacement", which HiPS offers, clearly is not. And that is what True Seeing negates, IMHO.

Once again, I'm inclined to disagree. True Seeing does not "see through all magic". Allow me to list what True Seeing DOES see through:

Darkness (magical or mundane)
Magic hiding secret doors
Blur and Displacement spells
Invisibility
Illusions
and Magical disguises (polymorphed, changed, and transmuted things).

Hide in Plain Sight, although it requires shadows to work, is not an effect of darkness. The ability does not require the viewers to be able to see darkness (so it isn't affected by darkvision and the like), nor does it even require shadows to be "dark". Unless the Shadowdancer is an animated door, that doesn't apply either. It isn't Blur or Displacement, nor is it invisibility, or an illusion, or a magical disguise (as the guy looks exactly the same, he's just hiding very well). True Seeing, as far as I can tell, can't see through an Obscuring Mist, can it? That's a spell that creates magical concealment, and True Seeing doesn't even trump that. What makes you think that True Seeing would get through Hide in Plain Sight?

Anyway, on a related note, there's something it doesn't seem you all are aware of that's a severe limited factor for Hide in Plain Sight: According to the recent Rules of the Game article that dealt with hiding and invisibility, Hiding (with the Hide in Plain Sight ability, specifically) takes a move action. So every round that the Shadowdancer wants to be impossible to see, he can only take one standard action or one move. So no Spring Attacking at all.

 

[Sheng Long Gradilla]

Hmm... a move action? The skill description does not say so, it says you use it while you do a move action.

Quoting from the manual:

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of a movement, so it doesn't take separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (See sniping) is a move action.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of a movement, so it doesn't take separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (See sniping) is a move action.

Yep. In the RotG article, the writer said that using Hide in Plain Sight is considered the same as Sniping for purposes of how much of an action it takes. And it's a heck of a good call, in my opinion- before, it simply became, "Okay, I've got this ability. Now nobody can see me, at absolutely no penalty to myself." Seriously, there was absolutely no downside to use it, and considering the benefits, it was far too good of an ability for rogues with multiple attacks. Two-weapon fighting full attacks, then 5-foot step to the side, anyone?

 

[Sheng Long Gradilla]

I read several of the articles already but could not find anything related. Would you point out the specific article and paragraph, please? I read all four regarding sneak attacks and the two regarding invisibility.

 

[Sheng Long Gradilla]

I just found something about hiding and how much of an action it takes in the third article about Movement. Nothing about Hide in Plain Sight in there. Again, if you point out the specific article and paragraph, I would appreciate it.

 

[Thanee]

Hmm... a move action? The skill description does not say so, it says you use it while you do a move action.

Quoting from the manual:

Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of a movement, so it doesn't take separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (See sniping) is a move action.

Well, that pretty much says, that you need to do a move action (but you can also move with that move action, so hiding is not an action by itself, but it neither is completely free).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Anyway, on a related note, there's something it doesn't seem you all are aware of that's a severe limited factor for Hide in Plain Sight: According to the recent Rules of the Game article that dealt with hiding and invisibility, Hiding (with the Hide in Plain Sight ability, specifically) takes a move action. So every round that the Shadowdancer wants to be impossible to see, he can only take one standard action or one move. So no Spring Attacking at all.

Havn't read that, but hiding is not a move action by itself, but part of a move action. At least according to the rules. You cannot hide without spending at least a move action, but when you do, you can move and hide with the same action.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Once again, I'm inclined to disagree. True Seeing does not "see through all magic". Allow me to list what True Seeing DOES see through:

Darkness (magical or mundane)
Magic hiding secret doors
Blur and Displacement spells
Invisibility
Illusions
and Magical disguises (polymorphed, changed, and transmuted things).

What I always like to point out when someone is quoting the above list...

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

So, there you have the list of things, True Seeing does not. Also no listing of HiPS. So it neither does nor does not see through the ability according to the spell description.

Also, it's interesting to note, that True Seeing contradicts itself there... "It does not negate concealment", yet it "sees through normal and magical darkness", or Blur/Displacement.

Obviously they speak only of physical concealment there... including fog, bushes and the like.

And HiPS - which is the big problem with the ability - does not state at all, what it is and how it works, it only lists mechanics, and even those fail to cover the ability completely. All we know is, that it is a magical ability, which uses the Hide mechanics. It's clearly not mundane hiding ("simply hiding"), and you clearly do not have physical cover or concealment when hiding that way (well, you could, but then you were not hiding in plain sight, really).

So some guesswork is required to give it a reasonable funcionality. Because the rules do not say at all what happens, when someone is hiding in plain sight.

True Seeing gives you the ability to see all things as they actually are.

So what is a shadowdancer hiding in an open space with no physical cover whatsoever?

A person standing right in front of you.

True Seeing does allow to pentrate magical disguises and magical means of concealment, but it does not allow to penetrate physical objects or concealment and thus see someone who is simply hiding (behind a physical object or concealment).

To me, there is only one reasonable conclusion, that True Seeing allows to see someone hiding in plain sight. Because there is nothing hindering the spell from working at all.

Anyways, what I have noted above in my first post... this is what I do.
I don't say, this is what the rules say, because they clearly do not say anything at all here.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Aaron2]

Havn't read that, but hiding is not a move action by itself, but part of a move action. At least according to the rules. You cannot hide without spending at least a move action, but when you do, you can move and hide with the same action.

Normally that would be the case, but Hiding after a sniping attack is specifically listed as a move action. I wouldn't allow the character to Attack, move and then Hide again on a Snipe attack. Just Attack and Hide in the same spot.


Aaron

 

[Thanee]

Yes, that's a special case... I am refering to normal hiding there.

And with Hide in Plain Sight, things are a bit different, too, since normally you cannot hide under observation, which is, why it is so difficult to hide using the sniping rules, because that's an exception to the normal rule, that you cannot hide under observation. In fact, I think, that when employing the sniping technique, you actually never become "visible" to your opponents (unless they make the Spot check against your difficult sniping Hide check). Normally, after an attack, they know where you are.

With HiPS you do not have this limit. You can just hide normally, if someone has seen you or even is seeing you. No -20, no sniping rule required.

Bye
Thanee