Shadowdark Shadowdark General Thread [+]

[Scribe]

Shower thought, while I would be happy to see it as an expansion, I think Strongholds are counter to the gameplay loop.

 

[nightnoongames]

Received my print copy of Dark Visions, and also "Creating and Adapting Monsters..." the white cover is a choice @nightnoongames

Radical! I'm glad you like the cover, and I hope you're able to put that zine to good use!!!

 

[Lidgar]

Shower thought, while I would be happy to see it as an expansion, I think Strongholds are counter to the gameplay loop.

Not sure if the are counter, but agree it feels more like an option or expansion.

Of course they would have to be named Shadowholds…points of light that are strongholds against the creeping darkness.

 

[Theory of Games]

Shower thought, while I would be happy to see it as an expansion, I think Strongholds are counter to the gameplay loop.

YOUR loop, but not everyone's

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think I'd position stonghold play as what happens at 10th level in Shadowdark. It seems like a natural segue. The focus just shifts from character advancement to domain play. Hmm.

It is the classic way. And if that's not what you want, you can always start another adventure with a new set of level ones.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Shower thought, while I would be happy to see it as an expansion, I think Strongholds are counter to the gameplay loop.

New loop after 10th? Plenty of precedent in other games with a similar old school feel. And it's optional anyway, so I really see no reason to object.

 

[Scribe]

YOUR loop, but not everyone's

Mmm I don't think so. There is a pretty clear loop for Shadowdark as written.

Not to one true way it, but the loop is obvious.

 

[Scribe]

New loop after 10th? Plenty of precedent in other games with a similar old school feel. And it's optional anyway, so I really see no reason to object.

Not an objection, just an observation that to me, it's a different loop.

 

[Fenris-77]

Mmm I don't think so. There is a pretty clear loop for Shadowdark as written.

Not to one true way it, but the loop is obvious.

I assume you're talking about the dungeon-town loop? That's something that every OSR game has. I think domain play is indeed a different loop, or perhaps a related loop depending on how it's implemented, but in neither case is it counter to the existing system. If it were well designed I think the right word is complimentary. You could still have adventureing play but scaffolded by some additional concerns that also befit a storied hero.

My difficulty with your position here is that there are many games that share the core SD loop and also have things like domain play, or urban intrigue play (which also escapes the core loop you identify, to some extent at any rate). Those games aren't incoherent and the other play loops or pillars of play or whatever you want to call them work side by side rather than in opposition.

 

[Scribe]

Since my son decided he needed to wake me up, and I'm not yet ready to jump back into work, lets gaze upon the navel a bit.

My difficulty with your position here is that there are many games that share the core SD loop and also have things like domain play, or urban intrigue play (which also escapes the core loop you identify, to some extent at any rate). Those games aren't incoherent and the other play loops or pillars of play or whatever you want to call them work side by side rather than in opposition.

First, I'm not against domain play, or urban intrigue, or anything else really that people want to do with Shadowdark, I'm not resistant to the idea, my point was that to me (emphasis on my own view) Shadowdark's core conceits, its gameplay loop, and its tone, are all very intentional.

I've still never sat down and put out my thoughts on SD as a whole, spare time was going against writing my own stuff. So...lets see how far I can get before I'm interrupted.

(Spoilers, I didnt even get to finish that sentence lol)

Frustratingly then, heres the Coles Notes version on how I look at SD, and its appeal to me.

1. The game is realized, immediately. While Casters will gain spells, and there are some Talents which are locked under specific and low odds rolls, for the majority of the players experience, they immediately are the Class in full. There is no 'build'. There is no 'I'll be awesome once I hit level X and my character is online!'

You roll your stats (this is also central but I likely dont have time to go into it all) you pick your class, and you are off and the game is the game.

2. The loop is direct, and simple, because the systems all work together.

A: Why do you adventure? To get loot.
B: Why do you get loot? To party, and level up.
C: You are now out of loot.
D: Return to A.

Thats it, Level 1 to Level 10. You begin the game as your fully realized class, you 'finish' the game as your fully realized class, and you pick up some loot and experiences along the way and these systems work together. Treasure has a purpose, its baked right into the game. That Treasure also has a cost (Gear Slots) which are limited, which ties into the gameplay as well but again I dont have time for a full deconstruction.

So, we then come to where I (again, me personal) do not see Shadowholds, as working with that loop but subverting it or working outside of it.

The A to D loop, assumes you have a need to adventure. You are not some land owner. You do not own a business. You are not for lack of a better term, established.

You are Conan (check out my Barbarian soon once I get the art sent to me!) and just as with many of those types of tales, you start...broke. So..off you go, to take your Treasure.

Once a Shadowhold (and yes thats now what its called) is in play I assume we can all see that the basic driver is gone. You are not broke, you have a Castle that needs to be maintained. Sure maybe you are house poor now, but thats still a different driver, to me.

--

TLDR: I believe that the core SD loop, and the game design are extremely intentional, and clean, and while I have no problem with Shadowholds as the 'End Game' level 10 loop, I do believe its fundamentally different, and communicates a different goal, than the base SD loop.

Now, its off to Real Life BS for the rest of the day.