Shadowfell Gloves and longer-lasting damage spells

Perun

Mushroom
I'm having a bit of a problem with the shadowfell gloves. The description (PH, 247) says:
Power (Daily, Necrotic): Minor Action. Change the damage type
dealt by the next arcane power you use to necrotic. Add 1d6 to the
damage dealt by that power (if any).

How do the gloves interact with powers that last over several rounds (like maintainable spells)?

For example, flaming sphere (Wizard Daily 1) does 2d6 + Int modifier fire damage on a successful hit. It can be sustained as a minor action, and the wizard can make other attacks with the spell using a standard action.

Do the shadowfell gloves affect every attack made by the modified flaming sphere, so that each successful attack deals 3d6 + Int modifier necrotic damage? Or is it just the first attack that gets the extra damage?

Also, what about "passive" damage? Flaming sphere normally deals 1d4 + Int modifier to all creatures that start their turn adjacent to the sphere. The gloves description says "add 1d6 to the damage dealt by that power". Does that apply -- it is damage dealt by the power, after all, and the gloves never specify it has to be "active" damage.

My knee-jerk reaction is to allow the extra damage to apply throughout the duration of the power since it is a daily item power (and thus usable once per day, unless the character carries multiple pairs of gloves), and the bonus damage doesn't really seem unbalancing. However, the extra damage scales at 16th and 26th level, and that might have a more significant effect on higher-level powers.

Has anyone encountered this (potential) problem this in their games? Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks in advance.

Regards.
 

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Kzach

Banned
Banned
If there is one thing I've learned about interpreting 4e rules, it's that they're to be taken very literally.

In other words, you change all damage dealt by the power to necrotic damage and add 1d6 damage to it. That's it. 1d6, no more, no less. You don't do 1d6 per round. You don't do 1d6 per attack. You just add 1d6 once.
 

Oompa

First Post
If there is one thing I've learned about interpreting 4e rules, it's that they're to be taken very literally.

In other words, you change all damage dealt by the power to necrotic damage and add 1d6 damage to it. That's it. 1d6, no more, no less. You don't do 1d6 per round. You don't do 1d6 per attack. You just add 1d6 once.


But the sustain damage is still damage from the first attack, you dont have to make an attack roll again when you sustain..

I would rule, add 1d6 to all damage, even when sustaining..

Mind that this an daily power and someone who is getting hit by this will likely come to the one who casted it..
 

Guys this new addition is very simple.

We are complicating it with our 3.5 edition mentality.

The gentlemen from before I feel is most correct.

Just interpret it literally. This will stop any circuitous routes of obtaining illegitimate power.
 

Chen_93

First Post
"Add 1d6 to the damage dealt by that power (if any)." If you add it each time the power deals damage you would be adding more than 1d6 to the damage dealt by the power. You add 1d6 once and that is all.

It would read "add 1d6 each time you deal damage with the power" if it was to work the other way.
 


IceFractal

First Post
Add 1d6 to the damage dealt by that power (if any).
See, to my mind, that could just as easily be interpreted like this:
1) What is the damage dealt by the power? 2d6+Int
2) Replace that with "3d6+Int" in the power.
3) The power deals 3d6+Int damage when applicable, such as when you make another attack with it.


Also, the issue is complicated by spells with zones, like Stinking Cloud. Let's say you you cast Stinking Cloud on an empty area, so the initial attack isn't even a factor. The gloves don't require you to hit to get the extra damage, so presumably it applies to the Effect section when people enter the cloud. Two people enter the cloud this round - taking an extra 1d6 damage. Then the next round, two more people enter, and the original two stay. Who takes the extra 1d6 damage? And would that answer change if nobody had entered on the first round?

The part that makes the situation ambiguous is that the gloves do not say anything about dealing the damage once, or once per creature, or the initial damage of the spell. In fact, it even phrases it as "adding" to the damage dealt by the power - not "the power deals an extra 1d6 damage".
 

IceFractal

First Post
Oh, and "illegitimate power"? I wasn't aware that using abilities in a halfway synergistic way, instead of picking actions randomly from a hat, was considered illegitimate.

If you have a power that pushes people, you push them through damaging zones where possible (the DMG agrees on this). If you have an item that adds a small amount of damage to a power, you pick a power where that damage will get as many chances to apply as possible. That's a little something called "basic tactics" - use what you have to its full potential.

The developers hopefully understand this, so why would you assume they didn't already balance things to be used effectively? Just because you can fight unarmed, doesn't mean using a sword is broken.
 

Chen_93

First Post
As I posted it says "add 1d6 to the damage dealt by the power"

If I hit someone with flaming sphere for 10 damage and then he takes 5 damage on his turn from it, how much damage has the power flaming sphere dealt? Answer is obviously 15 damage.

The gloves allow me to add 1d6 to the damage dealt by the power. That means if I added the 1d6 to the flaming sphere attack AND the damage taken on the opponents turn, I in fact added 2d6 to the damage dealt by flaming sphere.

You add the 1d6 ONCE to the damage the power deals because that is EXACTLY what is written.
 
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Larrin

Entropic Good
Personally i think the extra 1d6 gets tagged on once. That really is the best and simplest interpretation. when you roll the first damage, you add an extra 1d6 in the mix, whoever would take the initial damage (even if its mulitple targets) takes the extra 1d6. Ongoing damage, sustained triggered attacks, secoundary attacks, NO. For zones/walls that don't deal damage until someone enters them, the first person to get set off any damage takes it. Think of it as an expenable charge. The first chance to deal the extra 1d6 it does, and thats it. This way every ability (more or less) benefits the same, not some powers can deal only 1d6 while others end up with an extra 10d6 over the course of a battle. RAW makes it sound very "one time"-ish (no 'every/each time' mentioned), so thats how i'd distribute it.
 

Yumepenguin

First Post
My thoughts:

The gloves say to change the damage of the next arcane power you use to necrotic. Add 1d6 to the damage of that power.

Now, there is no mention of "Until the end of your next turn".

I think we're penalizing the gloves' power too much.

The gloves effectively edit the power itself. Just because a power (such as flaming sphere) lasts longer than one round doesn't mean the gloves only effect that power for one round.

Examples (i don't know wizard powers well so this is just random stuff):

Acid Arrow: Normally deals 2d8 + Int acid damage.
Acid Arrow with gloves: Deals 2d8 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage.

Now, lets go with flaming sphere.

Normal: Deals 2d6 + int fire damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + int fire damage automatically.
Sustain minor.

With Gloves: Deals 2d6 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage automatically. Sustain minor.

Just because you can sustain the flaming sphere (now necrotic sphere) doesn't mean it suddenly loses its newfound ability to deal extra damage and deal its damage as necrotic.

So: Gloves effect the text of the power directly, if the power stays around for more than one turn, so do the gloves effect on it.
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
If there is one thing I've learned about interpreting 4e rules, it's that they're to be taken very literally.

In other words, you change all damage dealt by the power to necrotic damage and add 1d6 damage to it. That's it. 1d6, no more, no less. You don't do 1d6 per round. You don't do 1d6 per attack. You just add 1d6 once.

So, are you saying that if you use the gloves with a fireball, only one target would get the additional 1d6 damage?
 

Oompa

First Post
My thoughts:

The gloves say to change the damage of the next arcane power you use to necrotic. Add 1d6 to the damage of that power.

Now, there is no mention of "Until the end of your next turn".

I think we're penalizing the gloves' power too much.

The gloves effectively edit the power itself. Just because a power (such as flaming sphere) lasts longer than one round doesn't mean the gloves only effect that power for one round.

Examples (i don't know wizard powers well so this is just random stuff):

Acid Arrow: Normally deals 2d8 + Int acid damage.
Acid Arrow with gloves: Deals 2d8 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage.

Now, lets go with flaming sphere.

Normal: Deals 2d6 + int fire damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + int fire damage automatically.
Sustain minor.

With Gloves: Deals 2d6 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage automatically. Sustain minor.

Just because you can sustain the flaming sphere (now necrotic sphere) doesn't mean it suddenly loses its newfound ability to deal extra damage and deal its damage as necrotic.

So: Gloves effect the text of the power directly, if the power stays around for more than one turn, so do the gloves effect on it.

I agree.. and it doesnt sound broken..
 

PHGraves

First Post
So, are you saying that if you use the gloves with a fireball, only one target would get the additional 1d6 damage?
Area damage is rolled once and applied based on the multiple attack rolls. Given that, I would have to say:
1) No.
2) Try harder with your trolling.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
Area damage is rolled once and applied based on the multiple attack rolls.

Yet if a multiclass warlock Curses three opponents and then hits them with a Fireball, does he not apply the extra damage to only one of them, despite there being a single damage roll?

If a Fireball hits two opponents and crits one of them, do they not take differing amounts of damage despite there being a single damage roll?

Since it's possible for multiple creatures to take different amounts of damage from a single Fireball, why would we add the single 1d6 from Shadowfell Gloves to multiple targets?

-Hyp.
 

Yumepenguin

First Post
Yet if a multiclass warlock Curses three opponents and then hits them with a Fireball, does he not apply the extra damage to only one of them, despite there being a single damage roll?

If a Fireball hits two opponents and crits one of them, do they not take differing amounts of damage despite there being a single damage roll?

Since it's possible for multiple creatures to take different amounts of damage from a single Fireball, why would we add the single 1d6 from Shadowfell Gloves to multiple targets?

-Hyp.

Because critting on an attack roll and a specific class ability that say "can only be applied once per turn" are exceptions to the general area of effect rule.

In a general area of effect all creatures take the same damage.

Example:

Say an area effect does 2d6 + Int damage to a 3 square burst.
There are 5 creatures in the 3 square burst. Damage is rolled with the gloves. Damage is 3d6 + Int. Say he rolls a total of 14 damage with this power.

Attack roll against creature 1: Hit = 14 damage
Attack roll against creature 2: Hit = 14 damage
Attack roll against creature 3: Crit = 21 damage, player applies curse to this target, damage = 27.
Attack roll against creature 4: Hit = 14 damage
Attack roll against creature 4: Crit = 21 damage

So, as you see three creatures managed to take the same amount of damage from the power because that's how much damage was initially rolled.

The gloves ability doesn't say "apply only once", it just say the next arcane power used gets +1d6 damage. Therefore, this AoE spell delt 3d6 damage instead of 2d6.
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
Area damage is rolled once and applied based on the multiple attack rolls. Given that, I would have to say:
1) No.
2) Try harder with your trolling.

I was simply asking for a clarification. The "you don't deal 1d6 per attack" idea is a bit fuzzy when you consider AoE powers such as fireball have multiple attack rolls, but only one damage roll, as you noted. Having only one target take the 1d6 extra damage would balance it against powers like Force Orb and Lightning Bolt, with a primary single target attack that is followed by a secondary attack that targets other creatures, under this interpretation of the rule.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
The gloves ability doesn't say "apply only once", it just say the next arcane power used gets +1d6 damage. Therefore, this AoE spell delt 3d6 damage instead of 2d6.

Which is fine, but if Fireball applies the +1d6 to every target, then we're discarding the "Only a single d6" interpretation, and so the Gloves used with, say, Flaming Sphere should add the +1d6 each time the Sphere deals damage.

I think one can interpret the Gloves as "Add a single d6 to a single instance of damage dealt to a single creature", or as "Add d6 to any damage dealt by the power", but I don't think there's a valid reading of "Add d6 to each target of Fireball, but only add d6 to the first attack made by Flaming Sphere and not thereafter".

-Hyp.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
2) Try harder with your trolling.


1)Try harder with your being civil to other posters.
2)Try harder with being respectful to other posters.

If you think someone's trying to stir up trouble by trolling, report their post. (There's a little icon at the bottom of the post for the purpose). Don't call them names in public. Thank you for your cooperation.
 

Verision

First Post
Well, I WAS in the "add 1d6 to the power's damage once and only once" group, but then I did some research and realized I was probably wrong.

You see, whenever I find a magical item whose description/function is in question, I look for a similar item (an item that has a similar effect) that's approxametly the same level.

So, let's all open our PHBs to page 249 and look at our friend the "Horned Helm".

Horned Helm
-It comes in level 6, 16 and 26, just like the shadowfell gloves.
-It adds extra damage; 1d6 @ 6, 2d6 @ 16 and 3d6 @ 26, just like the shadowfell gloves.
-It's property reads: "Your charge attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage". I think we can all agree that you get to add the 1d6 damage to the each and every charge your character does while wearing the helm. (It's not a Daily Power, just the property of the item.)

So, if the Horned Helm adds 1d6 damage to a charge, every time you charge, then it seems silly that the Shadowfell Gloves, which are the same level, would only be able to add 1d6 damage total per day.

So, I'm switching sides. When you use the Daily power of the Shadowfell Gloves, the next arcane power you use does an extra 1d6 damage every time it does damage. If you're smart, you'll use the Shadowfell Gloves with something like the Falming Sphere that can deal damage more than once.

Now the only thing that might alter this is the fact that the gloves change the damage type to necrotic, but I don't think that's a large enough bonus to make the gloves only do the extra damage once.
 

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