D&D 5E Shapeshifting dragons - only metallic?

[CapnZapp]

FWIW: I do understand the reasons not to hand out free shapeshifting to creatures.

Think of this discussion more to be about how to express our collective amazement that a directive has hold so firmly (if not absolutely) for som many years and so many editions. This in a game which is absolutely overflowing with crossbreeding ideas from various legends and myths, a game which otherwise has no qualms whatsoever with "breaking" norms and ideals of its individual sources...

More than a discussion about the specific whys of how chromatics weren't given shapeshifting, I mean.

 

[CapnZapp]

Dragons of Eberron, page 15 "Hidden Dragons"

"In Eberron, the ability to assume humanoid form is not limited to certain dragons; with proper training and dedication, any dragon can master this gift. Dragons that specialize in shapeshifting have developed a number of feats and at least one spell to enhance their abilities in humanoid form."

I know little of Eberron, but I do know Eberron was concieved to challenge (and overturn) certain tropes of classic D&D fantasy (read "the Greyhawk-infused Forgotten Realmsian generic D&D").

Could it be that what this is really saying about D&D is "the ability to assume humanoid form is limited to certain dragons"?

So thank you for this little tidbit. My campaign isn't set in Eberron, so this is mainly useful to me as background info on how that campaign world is "different", rather than a canonical example of a "rules-breaking" chromatic: in your campaign world it wouldn't be breaking any rules. But interesting nonetheless to find Keith Baker must have had this conversation previously!

 

[dave2008]

Could it be that what this is really saying about D&D is "the ability to assume humanoid form is limited to certain dragons"?

No, it clearly doesn't - your reading into it.

If we want to read into things I would point out that by WotC estimate approx. 50% of D&D is homebrew. I know I have always given Chromatics in my world the ability to shapechange, so that could be the norm for over 50% of D&D!

 

[dave2008]

I know little of Eberron, but I do know Eberron was concieved to challenge (and overturn) certain tropes of classic D&D fantasy (read "the Greyhawk-infused Forgotten Realmsian generic D&D").

Could it be that what this is really saying about D&D is "the ability to assume humanoid form is limited to certain dragons"?

So thank you for this little tidbit. My campaign isn't set in Eberron, so this is mainly useful to me as background info on how that campaign world is "different", rather than a canonical example of a "rules-breaking" chromatic: in your campaign world it wouldn't be breaking any rules. But interesting nonetheless to find Keith Baker must have had this conversation previously!

Also, Dragon #50,page 12 "Finally, at age 401 or more the dragon can shapechange, as the ninth-level magic user spell."

This was refer to all dragons, not just chromatics.

 

[dave2008]

ok, so, going by memory alone (sketchy at best), there was a Dragon Magazine article discussing this topic (1E/2E era). I have probably mis-remembered it, but I've carried it for many years. For those with good Dragon-Mag-Fu I'd start with the anniversary editions, they focused on Dragons typically.

IIRC - Good Dragons (Metallics) actually care about humanoids, and so developed the ability to shapeshift to better interact with them. Think Star Trek Prime Directive and all that: Let the humanoids find their own, but gently help them develop. Evil Dragons (Chromatics) could care less. Humanoids are chattel, why debase oneself to appear like one? It's a ghastly practice. That said, it's not that Chromatics can't if they so choose, but they typically don't. I'll let someone else find/confirm/deny this. My memory is shot, and my mags are in storage.

In my home campaigns, I've kept to this, but have had Chromatics shapeshift as the story demanded. I am pretty sure its only been Blacks and Greens in my campaigns, they are the "subtle" dragons and it fits (see previous posts about Cyan Bloodbane). Whites and Reds don't do subtlety. Blues might, imo, but i've never run it.

I found it - Dragon #50,page 12

 

[CapnZapp]

If we want to read into things I would point out that by WotC estimate approx. 50% of D&D is homebrew. I know I have always given Chromatics in my world the ability to shapechange, so that could be the norm for over 50% of D&D!

Sorry Dave but I have already clearly stated I'm aware I can just do whatever I want.

The premise of the discussion on chromatic shapeshifting precedent or the lack thereof will have to be "official WoTc publishing history" or it will be essentially meaningless.

So far, we have the d20 era Polymorph spell. It allowed pretty much any spellcaster to change shape at will, with none of the crippling 5E disadvantages (duration, concentration) that pretty much shuts down any attempt at inserting a dragon into the PCs midst unbeknownst.

Then we have Eberron. Cool, cool, cool... but still pretty much a self-contained campaign world, and a relatively new one at that.

All other examples so commendably dug up and presented here provide circumstancial evidence at best.

That doesn't mean I'm not enjoying the conversation. It only fuels my amazement at finding what appears to be a very rare case where TSR/WotC have managed to keep to the company line for decades...!

 

[CapnZapp]

I found it - Dragon #50,page 12

Thanks I'll check it out.

 

[SkidAce]

Well the mother of all evil dragons can shapechange...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat_(Dungeons_&_Dragons)


Tiamat in human form.

 

[dave2008]

Then we have Eberron. Cool, cool, cool... but still pretty much a self-contained campaign world, and a relatively new one at that.

But not nearly as new as 5e!

Perhaps you have stated it earlier and I missed it, but can you clarify what you are trying to find out or what your goal is? Every time I think I've helped answer your question, ya shoot me down. So, I'm starting to think I don't no the question! Can you enlighten me please and thank you for the discussion.

 

[Halivar]

FWIW, the Princes of the Apocalypse (OFFICIAL!) adventure has a black dragon shapeshifted as a drow lady-of-the-manor the PC's must negotiate with. I take this as license, as a DM, to give evil dragons whatever powers I need to make them bad- NPC's.