Sharp Shooting vs. Imp Precise Shot FEATS??

[ThomasBJJ]

Looking thru the Complete Warrior book, something doesn't make alot of sense.
There is a feat called Sharp Shooting that says that opponents who have cover against your ranged attack only get a +2 bonus to AC instead of +4.

But... in the Players Handbook (3.5) Improved Precise Shot eliminates the AC bonus for any cover except Total Cover, as well as eliminating the miss chance % for most concealment.

Improved Precise Shot is clearly much better than Sharp Shooting in every way.
The only difference in the prereqs are:

Sharp Shooting: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, BaB +3
Imp. Precise Shot: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, BaB +11, Dex 19

I suppose a 3rd lvl fighter could take Sharp Shooting instead of waiting until 11th level for Imp Precise Shot. But once he gets to 11th lvl and takes ImpPreShot, Sharp Shooting is totally worthless.

Here's another problem. The Order of the Bow PrC in Complete Fighter gains the Sharp Shooting feat at 6th level. Guess what character level you would have to be to be a 6th level Order of the Bow Initiate.... 11th !! (minimum) Which would qualify you for Improved Precise Shot.

Just seems strange that one feat would be clearly BETTER in ALL WAYS to another feat. I can't think of any other two feats where one does everything that the other does PLUS more.

*Edited to add the IPS prereq Dex 19

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Just seems strange that one feat would be clearly BETTER in ALL WAYS to another feat. I can't think of any other two feats where one does everything that the other does PLUS more.

It doesn't strike me as strange at all. The easy accessibility of Sharpshooting is what makes it appealing. A fighter who takes Sharpshooting at 4th-level will get eight levels of use out of the feat. Similar to Toughness, Sharpshooting is a feat that will be attractive to people who play straight through from 1st-20th level, whereas people building high-level characters will pass it over for Improved Precise Shot.

As far as Order of the Bow Initiate...a lot of PrC abilities are granted at higher levels than other PCs might get them. The benefit is that an OoBI doesn't have to spend a feat on Sharpshooting. And, having gotten Sharpshooting for free, he might decide that he's better to get Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow) than Improved Precise Shot, or something else.

 

[coyote6]

As far as Order of the Bow Initiate...a lot of PrC abilities are granted at higher levels than other PCs might get them. The benefit is that an OoBI doesn't have to spend a feat on Sharpshooting. And, having gotten Sharpshooting for free, he might decide that he's better to get Greater Weapon Focus (Longbow) than Improved Precise Shot, or something else.

Except, of course, that the Initiate gets Greater Weapon Focus for free at 4th level. If he didn't get it for free, he most likely wouldn't have the 8 levels of fighter required to get GWF, anyways.

I suspect that when the S&F stuff was being revised, someone didn't consider Improved Precise Shot (or didn't consider it enough) when they redid Sharp-shooting.

(I think the original error was in creating Improved Precise Shot as it is, but that's another thread.)

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Except, of course, that the Initiate gets Greater Weapon Focus for free at 4th level. If he didn't get it for free, he most likely wouldn't have the 8 levels of fighter required to get GWF, anyways.

I suspect that when the S&F stuff was being revised, someone didn't consider Improved Precise Shot (or didn't consider it enough) when they redid Sharp-shooting.

Quite possibly. As you demonstrated, I know little about OoBI in particular. My first paragraph is still perfectly valid, though.

(I think the original error was in creating Improved Precise Shot as it is, but that's another thread.)

I agree. I was stunned when I first learned about the feat. But as you say, that's another thread.

 

[FireLance]

Just seems strange that one feat would be clearly BETTER in ALL WAYS to another feat. I can't think of any other two feats where one does everything that the other does PLUS more.

I can think of two such feat pairs:

1. Toughness (PHB) and Improved Toughness (CW) - Any 3rd-level character who can meet the prerequisites would be strictly better off taking Improved Toughness (+1 hp/level) than Toughness (flat +3 hp).

2. Sudden Empower and Sudden Maximize (both from Miniatures Handbook). Same prerequisites, one allows you to modify a spell with the Empower Spell feat without increasing level or casting time once per day, the other allows you to do the same with Maximize Spell. Apart from certain very rare circumstances, Sudden Maximize provides a numerically superior advantage compared to Sudden Empower.

 

[Li Shenron]

BAB +11 and Dex 19 are quite high requirements! I think it's fair to have a lesser feat which is more easily and early accessible.

But I have to say that I don't like the fact you can take IPS without taking Sharp Shooting first, they would have made much more sense as a feat chain. Same for Toughness - Improved Toughness.

 

[ThomasBJJ]

I can think of two such feat pairs:

1. Toughness (PHB) and Improved Toughness (CW) - Any 3rd-level character who can meet the prerequisites would be strictly better off taking Improved Toughness (+1 hp/level) than Toughness (flat +3 hp).

I hadn't even seen the Imp Toughness yet, as I just got my CW book last night. Funny thing is, In my campaign house rules, I have Toughness (character gets 4 hp instead of 3 hp) as a prerequisite for Improved Toughness (+1 hp/level) which was not in print anywhere until now (other than Neverwinter Nights computer game).

 

[zorlag]

Well, characters with poor BAB will never qualify for Improved Precise Shot but that is about the only thing I can think of why Sharp-Shooting exists...

Z.

 

[Hypersmurf]

2. Sudden Empower and Sudden Maximize (both from Miniatures Handbook). Same prerequisites, one allows you to modify a spell with the Empower Spell feat without increasing level or casting time once per day, the other allows you to do the same with Maximize Spell. Apart from certain very rare circumstances, Sudden Maximize provides a numerically superior advantage compared to Sudden Empower.

It's not so much "rare circumstances" as "unmodified die rolls for damage".

When damage for a spell is Xd6, Maximize Spell is better.

When it's Xd6 + Y, Empower Spell may be better.

Empowered Magic Missile works out very slightly higher on average than Maximized Magic Missile.

Empowered Inflict Moderate Wounds the same, for a decent caster level.

It's not much better, and I agree that Sudden Maximize is the better feat, but I wouldn't say "very rare".

-Hyp.

 

[Ferret]

A wizard could get the first one, but not the second.