Shield Charge equivalent?

[0-hr]

In the campaign I'm preparing, I'm thinking of eliminating the Shield Charge feat (double damage when you charge with a shield). Otherwise, it just seems to me that the armies of the world would all fight with shields as their primary weapons (specifically, wooden shields with Spikes spells).

Before I did this, however, I wanted to verify that this Shield Charge feat does in fact make the shield the clear weapon of choice for those who want to inflict the most damage upon their opponents. Is there an equivalent feat for melee weapons in general? If not, is there some reason that people (or at least fighters over level 2)would use swords as weapons?

 

[Mr.Binx]

Well, since it only does double damage on a charge, you only get the double damage on the initial attack. After charging into combat I would switch into shield & sword style (Feat progression: Shield Charge, Shield Expert, Ambidexterity, Two-Weapon Fighting) and go to town on my opponent with multiple attacks which have the ability to do alot more than x2 damage. I really don't see the imbalance here. Unless you're hasted, it's a bit of a problem to repeatedly charge into the same opponent anyway. Also, unless the individual has the Shield Expert feat they are taking a -2 to their AC and additionally losing the AC bonus of their shield everytime they perform the shield charge.

 

[0-hr]

Real world history, role-playing, and just looking foolish aside, why would a warrior fight with a sword and shield rather than a shield and shield?

As a primary weapon, a shield would do double damage whenever you charge; and a wooden one is a great candiate for a Spikes spell (+2 to hit, increase threat range, +1/level damage). If there aren't equivalent feats/spells for melee weapons, or some drawback that I am not seeing, then the serious warriors of the D&D world should all be fighting with a shield on either arm.

I don't want this to happen (because it just looks dumb). When one of my players says "Wow, this Shield Charge thing looks like the way to go!", I want to be able to say "Nah, keep your axe and use these feats instead. You'll do just as well." The problem is, I can't find any set of feats or such that would let the axe do just as well.

 

[Rel]

Ki Ryn, you might want to check out this thread if you haven't already:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20213

If what you are worried about is that shield bash is too "uber", I wouldn't worry too much. For a low level warrior, I think that it is probably less powerful than Cleave. Only the rare, quirky character (like mine) is going to get much mileage out of the combo.

I think Mr. Binx makes a good point about the fact that it only works on a charge. That means that as soon as you get iterative attacks you are probably going to be using it less and less. Combine that with the fact that you lose points of AC for charging and lose the use of the shield (unless you have Shield Expert) and you are likely going to get hit in return by your opponent or one of his allies.

Sure, Brambles or Spikes further increases the efficacy of the Shield Charge tactic (as well as other shield bashes) but it assumes that you have access to a cleric who is willing and able to cast those spells. So I think that precludes the tactic from becoming the only logical way for fantasy armies to do battle.

The bottom line is that it appears to me that while you can do a sizable chunk of damage on a charge (if you hit), you will do more consistent damage over the long haul with a greatsword. I think it is balanced with the other fighting styles.

 

[Forrester]

I have to agree with you on this one -- it's just too stupid to allow. Why should you get double damage for knocking someone on the head with a shield charge, and not a charge with a greatsword?

The people with Shields get enough of a bonus already, esp. at medium to high levels. It seems to me there are a series of feats that allow someone carrying that +3 large shield to do double damage on a charge, swing it and not lose AC protection from it, knock people back with it as a Bull Rush, and lord knows what else. I think the first two especially are a really silly stretch.

So just nuke it! You'll be glad you did .

 

[James McMurray]

Double damage with a shield is not very powerful. Especially when you consider the low base damage a shield does. You are much better off wielding a Short Sword in your off hand for the increased threat range, since then you'll get to deal double damage more often.

Also, shields are much harder to enchant because you'll generally want offensive and defensive enchantments on them if you plan on using them for offense and defense.

I've thought several times about using the shield feat chain with a character, and probably will with my next character. Not because its too powerful though (I don't think it is), but because it sounds like fun.

 

[Rel]

I have to agree with you on this one -- it's just too stupid to allow. Why should you get double damage for knocking someone on the head with a shield charge, and not a charge with a greatsword?

I'd say for the same reason that you get double damage from charging with a lance or setting a spear against a charging opponent. It is a combination of the fact that you have the momentum of a person moving at a high rate of speed behind the blow and the fact that the "weapon" is designed in such a way as to be easily braced against a substantial portion of the wielders body in order to transfer as much of that energy to the target as possible.

I'd also be quick to point out that if you are the DM, you don't need my (or anyone else here) permission to nix the Shield Charge feat for your campaign. We all have our pet peeves about what is and is not appropriate for our games. I don't allow PC's to take any of the Half Fiend/Half Dragon/Half Troll templates for their characters. It doesn't fit with my idea of the kind of campaigns I want to run. You have just as much right to do the same.

 

[Mr.Binx]

Not too mention, a tank should never rely on spells and buffs for combat. In my games they are always the first ones to get hit with domination and the like then with targetted dispels if the character is unable to be mentally controlled with all those nasty buffs on. Mind control is easily enough countered. I always use the powerhouse tank against the party if they leave an opening for it. It's just too damned fun! Why min/max an enemy when your PCs do it for ya'?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

then the serious warriors of the D&D world should all be fighting with a shield on either arm.

You got to rephrase that: the powergamer warriors of the D&D world sould all be fighting with a shield on either arm.

Because if you are a serious warrior, you would never do something as silly as using two shields.

Besides, as has been pointed out, you have to charge in order to get the double damage. You can only make one attack at a charge. So you would have two shields all right, but you would get only double damage with one of them, the rest would just be normal - and that double damage would also only be if you could actually charge the enemy. And that's usually only in the first round, unless they are so stupid as to walk away and then charge back, what's not usually the case. In fact, they would probably charge you after you went away. This would only work if you were hasted.
And even then, you get more damage if you just use your iterative attacks.

 

[0-hr]

Well, let's put it this way: you are standing on the field of battle with 100 of your friends facing off against the orcish hordes. They are intent on killing you, your friends, your wife, and your children. Assume that you want to prevent this, and you'd like to live if possible. You therefor want to use the weapon that will inflict the most damage on the enemy. Here are your choices:

1) A sword

or

2) A shield that does everything the sword does plus doubles the damage whenever you happen to get in a charge.

Which would you choose? Sure you look cooler with the sword, but your dead kids aren't going to appreciate that now are they?

- - - - -

It's strange that so many readers seem to be missing the point but at least I am now confident that I'm not overlooking anything. The Shield Charge feat will not be present in my next campaign world. Thanks everyone for the input.