Shorten skill list...

[Thunhus]

Shorten skill list

I think that skill list is too long compared skill points that character classes have. That causes my players to pick skills that they think to be most useful in adventures and particularly in combat.

My revisited skill list:
Athletics: climb, jump, swim
Acrobatics: balance, tumble, escape artist
Notice: Listen, spot
Sneak: hide, move silently

Class that has one original skill as class skill has new skill as class skill also. For example barbarian has listen as class skill, but not spot. Now he has notice as class skill.

Synenergy bonuses do not count anymore.

This makes characters little better, but not very much. They have more options to do and hopefully they will pick some knowledge skills.

I also have problem with following skills and love to see them more frequently used in my games:

-appraise
-decipher script
-disguise
-forgery
-use rope

Maybe these skill could be bundled also?

Thunhus

 

[Li Shenron]

I know you're going to dislike my comment, but still...

If you think the skill list is too long compared to everyone's skill points, don't shorten the list but give more skill points.

The reason why the skill list is long is that the skill system is there to allow diversification between characters. One character may be great in climbing but not in swimming, like a normal person may love mountain or freeclimbing but doesn't like swimming. If you put them together with Jump, you reduce diversification a lot, and you're very close to just drop skills completely and simply play with ability checks.

If your problem is, as you say, that PCs want more skills, give every class +2 skill points per level, and +4 skill points per level to the Rogue for example. Or otherwise try to make cross-class skill cost as much as class skills. Both ways are more simple than merging the skills.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I think you'll dislike my comment even more than Li Shenron's.

I think that, if anything, classes get too many skill points and bundling skills makes the problem much worse. I think that skills, like other areas of the game, are about sacrifice: you have to give something up to get something. When all players have Notice because it's so good and so cheap, it loses its specialness; you might as well drop everyone 1 skill point per level and make it a new rule.

Yes, you may have more players take Knowledge, but only because it's the only thing left. When my players take Knowledge skills---and they do, they're quite popular around my table---it's because they were willing to take them in place of another skill that would have been potentially useful, making their possession of that knowledge special.

Plus, in general, I think Tumble is too good to be bundled. I could see Athletics, since those are out-of-favor skills in general, but beyond that I can't see this doing any good. YMMV, of course; do what works for you.

 

[Li Shenron]

More comments

Notice: Listen, spot
Sneak: hide, move silently

These 2 couples of skills would indeed make some sense to be merged. For example Hide and MS are most of the times used together, therefore almost all the characters take either both or none. Monte Cook has been suggesting for a long time to merge these 2.

On the other hand, being stealthy is one big tactical advantage for a PC, and IMHO it is not unfair if it costs "twice" as much as the average other skill. The same feeling I have with Listen & Spot, whose most common use is to get a surprise round.

YMMV of course, but if you choose the merging route, I think there could be better couples to merge among less-used skills.

I also have problem with following skills and love to see them more frequently used in my games:

-appraise
-decipher script
-disguise
-forgery
-use rope

Maybe these skill could be bundled also?

Those are rarely used in our games as well. IMHO the best thing would be to expand those skills uses, such as allowing Appraise to have a chance at identifying that an object is magic or allowing Decipher Script to work on spoken languages (i.e. to try and get what is being said in a language you don't speak).

 

[Undead Lincoln]

If you want other skills to show up, I think you are going about it the wrong way. You are making the skills which are already too attractive even more attractive. You must make the other skills, the ones you want to see more attractive.

You can make them more attractive in two ways. You can give them extra uses, like Lil Shenron said. The other option is to run the type of game in which those skills are useful. If you are playing a kick in the door style campaign, then noone will take disguise or forgery. If the comprehend languages spell is availible noone will take decipher script. If the merchants are honest, noone will take appraise. Noone will ever take use rope.

That is probably the best way to make the less seen skills attractive. However, it may be difficult to work in with your group. Some skills, particularily disguise, forgery, bluff, etc. almost require a character to have max ranks before they become effective. So working the need for them into an already existing game will be difficult. I suggest the next game you run, you explain to your characters that there will be lots of intrigue and subterfuge needed. Success at this will be at least as important as being able to fight. This will lead to characters taking and using skills (like disquise and forgery) and classes (like bard and courtier (from Oriental Adventures) that wouldn't see much play in a dungeoncrawl.

 

[Beholder Bob]

My current list

APPRAISE
ATHLETICS - acts as jump and a skill for sprinting
BALANCE
BLUFF
CLIMB
CRYPTOGRAPHY - replaces decipher script, does not read scrolls, includes mathematics
DIPLOMACY
DISGUISE
DWEOMOR-CRAFT - replaces spell craft, use magic device, & read scrolls
ESCAPE ARTIST
FINESSE DEVICE - replaces open locks and disarm traps
FIREARMS - for loading & maintaining firearms
FORGERY
GATHER INFO - new use added, spreading rumors
HANDLE ANIMAL
HEAL - w good roll, imposes a minimum result on healing magic dice
INTIMIDATE
KNOWLEDGE - expanded list, more defined
LANGUAGE - expanded languages - you need more skill points to use a language well
PERCEPTION - replaces spot & listen
RIDE
SEARCH
SELF CONTROL - replaces concentration, also for staying awake, fighting fear & resist pain
SENSE MOTIVE
SLIGHT OF HAND
STEALTH - combine hide & move silent
SWIM
TUMBLING
USE ROPE
VOCATION - replace craft & profession, INT for making item, WIS for making a living

Oops, forgot these!
PERFORM
SURVIVAL - Purchased for regional type, desert, forest, swamp....

Effectively dropping 4 skills.

Am on the lookout for skills that should be added, but haven't thought of any. I had tumble & balance tied together originally, but decided it was just too damn good. Dweomorcraft is pretty awesome, but I feel that a person good with/skilled at magic would be the one most likely person to use a weird mg item, not someone w/no knowledge of magic. Oh well.

BB

 

[mmadsen]

My revisited skill list:
Athletics: climb, jump, swim
Acrobatics: balance, tumble, escape artist
Notice: Listen, spot
Sneak: hide, move silently

Certainly notice and sneak make conceptual sense; the only issue is that they are worth more than other single skills. I don't see climb, jump, and swim as closely related. On the other hand, I see jump as very closely related to tumble, which is very closely related to balance. I'd combine those three into one skill to represent the parkour abilities of a Jackie Chan.

Escape artist should probably be a feat, as should use rope.

 

[Beholder Bob]

My knowledge list
Anatomy Architecture of the body, identify remains by species, and the physical cause of death. Synergy bonus to Heal & the vocation Tanner/Furrier if 5+ ranks.

۞ Arcane Theory of magic, what materials have what function, magic traditions, symbols, and identify constructs, dragons, and magical beasts. Synergy bonus to Dweomorcraft if 5+ ranks.

۞ Culture [Name] Who’s who, leaders, traditions, city name and locations, history, taboos, laws, customs, and famous individuals. Synergy bonus to Diplomacy and Gather Information while in or dealing with members of this culture.

۞ Elysium Identify Celestial creatures. 10+ ranks, knows routes to Elysium. Otherwise as AOK Culture & Region.

۞ Engineering Mechanical engineering methods and architecture designs are known to you. Identify strengths and weaknesses of structures. Synergy bonus to Engineer and Search when looking for architectural structures if 5+ ranks.

۞ Faerie Fairy rings, how magic works there, identify Faerie creatures. This skill does not include cultural information (each sub-plane has its own culture skill. 10+ ranks knows how pass into Faerie.

۞ Island Familiar with the geography, location of cities, roads, and typical creatures found on these lands. Synergy bonus to Survival and Navigation while in this region, as well as AOK Culture checks for cultures found on this landmass.

۞ Infernus Identify Infernal creatures. 10+ ranks knows routes to Infernus. Otherwise as AOK Culture & Region.

۞ Nature Identify animals, plants and vermin. Seasonal cycles and weather systems are understood, as well as soil quality. Synergy bonus to Survival on land & the vocation Herbalist if 5+ ranks.

۞ Navigation Identify stars and stellar patterns. Able to identify compass direction using the stars, and able to read and use maps and sextant. Synergy bonus the vocations Cartographer and Sailor if 5+ rank.

۞ Necrology Identify the undead, their strengths, weaknesses, and hungers. Recognize signs of their presence. Synergy bonus to AOK Anatomy if 5+ ranks.

۞ Oceanography Understand tidal forces, determine depth of waters, aquatic phenomena, and Piscean creatures. Synergy bonus to Vocation – Sailor and AOK Navigation if 5+ ranks.

۞ Religion Identify symbols and methods of practice, as well as traditional tenets, strictures, and methods. Able to identify common spells granted by that religion.

۞ Shadow-Lands Shadow Wells, how magic works there, identify creatures native to it, as well as aberrants in general. This skill does not include cultural information (each sub-plane has its own culture skill. 10+ ranks know how to pierce the veil to the Shadow-Lands.

۞ Terrain A type of terrain is familiar to you, such as swamp, mountain, savanna, etc. You are familiar with typical dangers associated with this type of terrain, types of creatures common to it, as well as any unique traits they may exhibit (such as swamp gas and swamp lights). Synergy bonus to Survival and Navigation while on this type of terrain, as well as AOK Nature checks pertaining to it.

۞ Warfare Methods and warfare, strategy and tactics, and historical anecdotes of war. Knowledgeable of historical and modern generals and organizations from familiar cultures. Synergy bonus to Vocation Siege Engineer and to spot and search rolls to identify military structures if 5+ ranks.

My vocation list
Alchemist....................Armor Smith
Baker..........................Basketweaver
Blacksmith...................Bowyer / Fletcher
Brewer/Vintner.............Butcher
Carpenter....................Cartographer
Cheese-Maker..............Cobbler
Cook..........................Cooper
Dyer...........................Engineer / Architect
Farming.......................Fine metal smith
Fishing........................Furrier
Gardening....................Glassblowing
Glazier.........................Gun Smith
Herbalist.......................Hunter / Trapper
Jeweler / Gem-Cutter......Lawyer / Judge
Leatherworker................Locksmith
Lumberjack....................Mechanist
Mining..........................Painter
Poison Brewer................Potter
Printer..........................Twine & Rope-Maker
Sailor...........................Scribe
Shipwright.....................Siege Engineer
Steam Smith..................Stonemasonry
Tailor............................Tanner / Skinner
Tattoo artist..................Wax-Man/chandler
Weapon-Smith...............Weaver
Wheelwright

BB

 

[MeiRen]

I also perfer "budled skills". But when I do it, I halve the number of skill points characters recieve. (characters with odd numbers of skills get an extra point every other level.)

In terms of how to bundle skills, well, that's up to you. What kind of campaign are you running? If you want a standard D&D campaign, you should bundle exactly two skills into one "broad skill". If you not, you may want to change the skills completly. Ie, I wanted a game based on lots of deception. So, I created a "deception" skill that encompassed Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery. But the "Empathy" skill was only sense motive - I wanted to make seeing through deception a very rare ability.

Incidentally, you can see my skills groupings at meiganren.com, a few posts down.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

A big one on my list is combining Open Lock with Disable Device. Still can't normally get anyone to take either. I also combine Spellcraft with Psicraft (but not their respective Knowledges) and Use Magic Device with Use Psionic Device.

In my Dragonstar game, I strongly considered combining Freefall with Tumble or making it a Tumble check that required special training. I'm still not quite satisfied with it.

I also really do not think that Autohypnosis should be a skill by itself or that it should be limited to psionic characters, but the only logical combination that I can find, Concentration, is simply too common.