Shot on the Run, Manyshot and stuff :)

[billd91]

One specific standard action is multishot. Another specific standard action is an attack action. However, the fact that they are both in the same category does not mean they are equivalent.

You cannot perform an act that is specifically a standard action when you are only specifically allowed an attack action. Multishot is specifically a standard action. Shot on the Run specifically allows only an attack action. Thus, mutishot cannot be used while using Shot on the Run.

The trouble with this whole debate is the way it hinges on small details in the rules and semantics. An attack action taken with Shot on the Run, since you're moving your whole movement rate, is a standard action that happens to be required to be an attack (hence, it can't be a spell, magic item activation, or total defense). Manyshot is a standard action that's also clearly an attack (you make an attack roll with a ranged weapon). But, as clarified by Collins and Williams, it's not an 'attack' action. The end effects that the player sees are similar: shot on the run - you make 1 attack roll and can move your whole movement, multishot - you make 1 attack roll and can move your whole movement. The difference is, that 1 attack roll for multishot fires off >1 arrows and for shot on the run the movement can be broken up before and after the shot.

Edition 3.5 was supposed to help clarify the rules with respect to actions. In this case, I think it has failed to do so. I think defining Multishot as a standard action makes it reasonably clear that you can't use it as part of a full-round action or in conjunction with any other standard action during the round. I don't think that calling it a standard action makes it absolutely clear that it's not an 'attack' action since any attack you make when that's the only attack you make that round is also a standard action.

Saying you need an attack action for Shot on the Run and Spring Attack (and even Combat Expertise) makes it reasonably clear (especially if you've read the FAQs) that you can't use it with spell casting, total defense, and magic item activation, all of which are defined as distinct from attack actions.

Personally, since the only significant difference between Multishot as clarified by WotC and Multishot with Shot on the Run is the ability to segment the character's movement, I'll be allowing it in my game.

 

[Camarath]

I guess that I’ll agree to disagree that common sense can be used a DM tool. If it isn’t common sense to you then show me how it unbalances the game.

I agree you can use common sense as a DM's tool, it is a very good basis for making house rules. But IMO common sense is a very bad basis for interpreting the rules as they are written and if it is used in such a manner to abrogate the rules it can lead to many unforseen problems.

 

[Marshall]

I don't think it gets any more official than this: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45345

I wish the 2 feats worked together, but they simply do not. I hope that helps.

So, Gee. The only possible use for either of these two feats is specifically banned by the designer?

Note, this coming from the same people who thought the Epic MT was a real option....

Again I ask, Are the designers actually playing the game they write, or are they playing what they THINK they write?

 

[rkanodia]

To all you people who are saying that a full-round ranged attack draws AoO for every shot: I can't find ANYTHING in the SRD that even comes close to implying such a thing!

The only place where ranged weapons drawing AoO is in the action table, and it says "attack (ranged)..... Yes", under the heading "Standard Actions". Note: standard actions. Not full-round actions. Not 'actions that can happen during a standard action or a full round action'.

Unless a full-round action actually consists of a series of standard actions (attack {ranged}), then I just don't see anything the SRD says that supports the (obviously correct from a logical/game balance standpoint) position that a full-round attack with a ranged weapon draws AoO.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

To all you people who are saying that a full-round ranged attack draws AoO for every shot: I can't find ANYTHING in the SRD that even comes close to implying such a thing!

Hmmm... Doesn't the SRD indicate that an attack with a ranged weapon in a threatened square incurs an AoO?

An attack is a standard action.

A full round action can be many things (usually it combines a standard and a MEA)

Full Round Attack Action is an attack action. An attack action incurs AoO, if (see above). Right?

I'm getting this silly error trying the SRD, but I remember seeing that when I was looking this morning. I believe I found something that indicated the proper position, but I don't have the SRD down loaded

So, Gee. The only possible use for either of these two feats is specifically banned by the designer?

Note, this coming from the same people who thought the Epic MT was a real option....

Again I ask, Are the designers actually playing the game they write, or are they playing what they THINK they write?

Why is the only possible use for these two feats banned??? The only thing banned is using them together, and for good reason.

Allow them to be used together, and you'd be allowing a line of reasoning that would allow a player to substitute many shot for every potential attack action...

 

[rkanodia]

No, the SRD doesn't say that making a ranged attack in a threatened square draws AoO. It says:

"Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule."

Table: Actions in Combat does list "attack (ranged)", but only under the heading Standard Action. "Full attack" is explicitly stated as not drawing attacks of opportunity, under the heading Full-Round Action. It doesn't say "full attack (melee)". Just "full attack". If someone is going to be a super rules Nazi, then it seems to me that they have to admit that the rules are very clear on this point: a full attack with a ranged weapon is definitely a "full attack", and a full attack does not draw AoO. I can't find any specific exception, clarification, or footnote to imply otherwise.

Is this an oversight? Definitely. The designers couldn't possibly have wanted you to be able to use full-round ranged attacks without drawing AoO, but they forgot to add a line to a table, and so they did, if you insist on the most literal interpretation of the rules.

 

[Camarath]

If someone is going to be a super rules Nazi, then it seems to me that they have to admit that the rules are very clear on this point: a full attack with a ranged weapon is definitely a "full attack", and a full attack does not draw AoO.

Actually if your going to be a Super Rule Nazi I think that you would not have missed this rule.

Deciding between an Attack or a Full Attack: After your first attack, you can decide to take a move action instead of making your remaining attacks, depending on how the first attack turns out. If you’ve already taken a 5-foot step, you can’t use your move action to move any distance, but you could still use a different kind of move action.

This can be construed to mean that an attack action does not count as a full attack action untill after the character decides to make a second attack thus meaning that untill that point the action would count as a standard attack action and thus the first attack could provoke an AoO before the action fell under the no AoO portection of the full attack action.

 

[billd91]

This can be construed to mean that an attack action does not count as a full attack action untill after the character decides to make a second attack thus meaning that untill that point the action would count as a standard attack action and thus the first attack could provoke an AoO before the action fell under the no AoO portection of the full attack action.

Except for certain ranged attacks with feats like Rapid Shot which requires you to declare that you're taking the multiple attacks before you attempt the first one because of the penalty it enforces.

But then all this strikes me as a situation in which a DM wasn't using common sense in the application of the rules. There's that darn common sense again.

 

[Camarath]

Except for certain ranged attacks with feats like Rapid Shot which requires you to declare that you're taking the multiple attacks before you attempt the first one because of the penalty it enforces.

But then all this strikes me as a situation in which a DM wasn't using common sense in the application of the rules. There's that darn common sense again.

Do you have they option of of stoping after the first attack when using Rapid Shot? I don't know because I can not find clear rules on that point. If you have the option which one could resonable argue that you do, then your first attack could still count as a standard attack action even though you took the Rapid Shot penalty.

If you want to play the game in certian manner then do it. There is IMO no right way to play D&D. Also IMO deciding how game mechanisms work in your game (and house ruling them to work the way you want them to) so as to preserve game balance, your group's fun, and the flavor of your campaign is part of what it means to be a DM.

 

[Lab Monkey]

So, Gee. The only possible use for either of these two feats is specifically banned by the designer?

Note, this coming from the same people who thought the Epic MT was a real option....

Again I ask, Are the designers actually playing the game they write, or are they playing what they THINK they write?

Well, I'd hardly say this is the only use for either feat. Manyshot is awesome on surprise rounds where all you can do is a standard action. I also lets you move and take your full # of attacks. In both of those situations it's pretty good.

Shot on the Run is nice for moving from cover, firing, and returning to cover. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Under certain circumstances, you can even get the benefits of the combo without SotR. If you're lying behind a wall, you can stand up (move action), use manyshot (standard action) and drop to prone (free action).