D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Mecheon]

So you'd prefer those rules of mixing/matching between racial components be included within the DMG I presume?

I'd be ok with that, that is why I offered something like a 1-page blurb in the PHB that you'd have to discuss the option of a half-race with your DM and in reference to the particular setting of the game.

Would be the better spot for 'em in my opinion. Gives you an example of how to build your own race by very noteable building blocks (IE: The pieces of pre-existing races) and its a popular archetype for folks to muck around with

 

[CreamCloud0]

Both?

A. The half-breed naming and lingering specter of othering hangs over both races

yes, the half-X moniker itself isn't great, nobody is denying this, but being of mixed blood is in no way something to be made ashamed of, maybe call them an 'elf crossed human' or 'human crossed orc' or something.

and despite people like Minigiant attempting to remove the idea that they are a just human/X combos (like aasimar not being human/angel combos), the story keeps looping to "they are the species defined by being prejudiced against by one or both parents"

only it seems, because people seem determined to insist that's the only possible interpretation, are you yourself not doing this right now? saying that what defines them is prejudice rather than, say, being torn between their loyalty to two cultures and heritages? finding out where they decide they fit inbetween them?

B. Both races don't give anything overtly unique, with both species being either a mix of human and X or a variation on X that is different on a micro scale but indistinguishable on a macro one.

they can be given their own unique mechanics, just because they don't currently have them that's not a reason to condemn them. we can improve rather than discard.

So we're going to save the half-elf (orc). Except we're giving them a new name, new origin, and new abilities. What exactly are we saving again?

That's my problem.

we're going to save the half-elf and half-orc, their name is going to change but not monumentally so, their origins and narrative are the same just with the less savoury aspects given less prominence, and new abilities, which have always been prone to being tweaked somewhat between editions.

a few extraneous and outdated bits and bobs are getting reworked and removed, but the core of them is still there, we're saving two very popular species with a narrative that resonates with many people

 

[Remathilis]

yes, the half-X moniker itself isn't great, nobody is denying this, but being of mixed blood is in no way something to be made ashamed of, maybe call them an 'elf crossed human' or 'human crossed orc' or something.

I dunno what name you give it that's snappy and descriptive. I assume sensitivity readers will find something.

only it seems, because people seem determined to insist that's the only possible interpretation, are you yourself not doing this right now? saying that what defines them is prejudice rather than, say, being torn between their loyalty to two cultures and heritages? finding out where they decide they fit inbetween them?

Because people say that removing that conflict removes Tanis and his struggles. Now don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly fine not making the basis of half-elves origins Tanis or the issue of orcs "breeding up" implied in Half-orcs. The issue is, will it stick?

they can be given their own unique mechanics, just because they don't currently have them that's not a reason to condemn them. we can improve rather than discard.

But that's the catch 22; some people just want half-x to be a mix of x and y (this is typically the response to WotC's idea of pick X or Y) and others want them to be z (something unique to them that x or y don't get). So you end up with the three general camps
1. Choose X or Y and reflavor (Wotc option)
2. Get parts of X and Y (hybrid/level up option)
3. Get Z, which neither X or Y have (new species option)

we're going to save the half-elf and half-orc, their name is going to change but not monumentally so, their origins and narrative are the same just with the less savoury aspects given less prominence, and new abilities, which have always been prone to being tweaked somewhat between editions.

a few extraneous and outdated bits and bobs are getting reworked and removed, but the core of them is still there, we're saving two very popular species with a narrative that resonates with many people

Personally, I don't want to save the half-elf and half-orc. I want them to be a choice alongside half-dwarves, goliath-gnomes, dragonborn-elves, orc-tieflings and aasimar-halflings and all the other combinations. They don't need to be first among peers and they certainly don't need to be the only officially sanctioned pairings.

 

[Maxperson]

When even /tg/'s little wiki opens their Half Elf article with "who, alongside gnomes, have the dubious honor of being regarded as one of the most superfluous and "do we really need this race?" races in fantasy gaming", I get the feeling its not just a me thing.

It's absolutely not just a you thing. There are a few of you out there, but you guys are vastly outnumbered by the folks that don't think that way and love half-elves.

Folks like thri-kreen to the point that Dark Sun requests have been the lifeblood of 5E forum posts for most of its life and yet no one's asking for them to be PHB content despite being popular. Liking a race isn't enough for it to be in the PHB, and the PHB shouldn't be a Best Of, because if its a Best Of then a lot of races folks like hanging around won't be lasting and instead we'd have Dragonwrought Kobolds and Humans for their old 3.5E shenannigans, with Halflings, Half Orcs and Dwarves consigned to non-existence

Thri-kreen are not why people have been asking for Dark Sun. At least not a primary reason. I'm not even sure it makes top 5.

Why should they be in the basic book? What unique mechanics are they bringing to "Hi there, person who has never played Dungeons and Dragons in your life, here are a wide variety of options to show you what choices you have to play as?" Are half elves that much of a common occurrence through the planes and universe that they need to have a place in the first book produced, and aren't just side content?

There are enough of them to be a race. As many of them as their are tieflings or dragonborn.

Why is it so important to you to force half-elves into some sort of blah zone?

 

[Maxperson]

What measures do we have though? We have 5E's character numbers, which we know for a fact is inherantly biased due to the half elf's inherant power. We don't have anything that comprehensive for any other edition.

You can keep repeating that, but it won't ever make it true. The half-elf 1) is not a power race, and 2) only has charisma bonus as it's "power." The thing is, tieflings, aasimar and yuan-ti also have +2, and several more have +1(which is all you need if you roll an odd number). Most of those races also do not crack the top 10, despite also being "power" races, and many with more powerful actual racial abilities.

The half-elf numbers are not skewed by the charisma bonus or all the others would be as well.

 

[Maxperson]

The two skills thing is really bad because wotc already has a handful of species that have that and more:

Ancestral Legacy. If you replace a race with this lineage, you can keep the following elements of that race: any skill proficiencies you gained from it and any climbing, flying, or swimming speed you gained from it.
If you don't keep any of those elements or you choose this lineage at character creation, you gain proficiency in two skills of your choice.

What races get this? Dhampir, hexblood and reborn. What else do they get?

Dhampir:
Darkvision
Climb speed, spider climb at will at 3rd
Doesn't breathe
1d4 bite attack with extra riders prof/day

Hexblood
Darkvision
Fey type
Eerie tokens (telepathic message or scry on holder)
Disguise self and hex spells 1/day

Reborn
Poison save advantage and resistance
Advantage on death saves
Don't eat, sleep or breathe. Immune to sleep effects.
Add 1d6 to any skill checks prof/day

Vs
Darkvision
Fey ancestry
+1 ASI
+1 language

Yeah, half-elf is absolutely the weakest option...

But the half-elf is a power race!!!! That's why they're so popular!

 

[Remathilis]

But the half-elf is a power race!!!! That's why they're so popular!

In a PHB only game, I could see it. By the time of Tasha, it was severely outgunned. Heck, half-orc is far weaker from the second "Eberron" orc, forget the MotM.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Chalk me up as one of the folks who believes people are perfectly capable of roleplaying as something even without a game mechanic attached to it.

You can roleplay as a shaman without there being a shaman Class. You can roleplay as a lighthouse keeper without there being a lighthouse keeper Background. And you can roleplay as a half-elf without there being a half-elf Species. It's all about just who you are, how you behave, and what is important to you as a character within the story of the campaign.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Chalk me up as one of the folks who believes people are perfectly capable of roleplaying as something even without a game mechanic attached to it.

You can roleplay as a shaman without there being a shaman Class. You can roleplay as a lighthouse keeper without there being a lighthouse keeper Background. And you can roleplay as a half-elf without there being a half-elf Species. It's all about just who you are, how you behave, and what is important to you as a character within the story of the campaign.

But your stance is that the rules are irrelevant anyway, which is hard to square with being a gamer.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Chalk me up as one of the folks who believes people are perfectly capable of roleplaying as something even without a game mechanic attached to it.

You can roleplay as a shaman without there being a shaman Class. You can roleplay as a lighthouse keeper without there being a lighthouse keeper Background. And you can roleplay as a half-elf without there being a half-elf Species. It's all about just who you are, how you behave, and what is important to you as a character within the story of the campaign.

Sure, but that same argument can be used for getting rid of basically any species, class, background or game element.