D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Minigiant]

This. 100%. Coupled with the fact that when orcs were given player stats, they were made terrible purposefully to 1.) discourage playing them and 2.) justify half-orcs as the more sensible option.

But then WOTC redid Orc in MOTM.

so Again.

You are using outdated mechanics and lore.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

And I'll repeat it

Both 4e and 5e gave half orc and half elf non offensive mechanics and lore separate from an orc or elf respectively.

"Half Orcs only exist to play a Orc. Orcs are playable so we don't need Half Orc" doesn't work if Half Orc have evolved past playable Orcs.

Where are you seeing that? Because I have always seen half-orcs mechanically, in all editions, as just half measure to play an orc, with nothing to stand on their own. You have also ignored how whatever niche Half-orc was supposed to fill...Goliath did better.

But then WOTC redid Orc in MOTM.

so Again.

You are using outdated mechanics and lore.

MOTM Orc was the Orc that pretty much made half-orc feel redundant, so your own argument was moot.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not current humans.

Current humans are versatile as a total species but each human is specialized by hunature.

Half elves are mechanically and lorewise versatile as an individual

A human aims to be a good diplomat or athlete. But a half elf aims to be an athletic diplomat.



Nope

Half orcs had features displaying their racial ability to exact force and withstand pressure.

I mean the lore and mechanics are literally in the books. There is no reason to good back to 20 year old stuff.

Do you not understand? The point is, what you can be is not limited by your circumstance of birth.

So any situation where species X is good at Z and species U is good at W are directly contrary to the ethos they are aiming for.

They are not quite there yet, but they are moving in the right direction.

 

[Remathilis]

And I'll repeat it

Both 4e and 5e gave half orc and half elf non offensive mechanics and lore separate from an orc or elf respectively.

"Half Orcs only exist to play a Orc. Orcs are playable so we don't need Half Orc" doesn't work if Half Orc have evolved past playable Orcs.

There is two flaws in your analysis.

4e never had playable orcs. They gave some bare bones stats (for "NPCs") in the back of the MM1, but I don't think they ever got a PC writeup. Further, the first attempt at 5e PC orcs had the infamous -2 Int to clearly discourage them from the otherwise similar half-orcs. It's not until the errata'd orc (in Eberron) that orc stats were finally balanced for playing, at that was only a half-dozen years ago.

Further, what lore? Both 4e and 5e imply half-orcs are children of frontier orc/human peaceful contact (rather than the violent background of before) but 5e orcs up to Tasha's were still thralls to Gruumsh and barely able to keep their evil in check (and half-orcs suffered the same curse, tempered by... their human blood!) The lore still placed them as the "more intelligent" orcs, and even the 4e writeup described how they were more "human looking" than regular orcs (the 10% passable rule lives on...). Further, 4e and 5e both talk about how half-orcs faced prejudice by those who hate orcs and have to work to get past it.

I checked the 2014 PHB, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and PHB2 (4e). There is no great distinction in the lore other than "they are orcs made playable due to human blood".

So if you have some super-secret lore dump that clearly spells that half-orcs weren't just PC orcs prior to Tasha, I want citations.

 

[Minigiant]

Where are you seeing that? Because I have always seen half-orcs mechanically, in all editions, as just half measure to play an orc, with nothing to stand on their own. You have also ignored how whatever niche Half-orc was supposed to fill...Goliath did better

The 2014 H Orc and VGOTM Orc share no mechanics outside of darkvision which everyone and their mama got.

MOTM Orc was the Orc that pretty much made half-orc feel redundant, so your own argument was moot.

That's only because Orc has been updated thrice.

If the 2014' Half Orc was updated to match theor lore they would look different from MOTM orc.

The MOTM and 2024 Orc stole some of the 2014Half Orc's mechanics and none of its lore.

Only 1 thing was redundant: Relentless Endurance.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

That's only because Orc has been updated thrice.

So when others use 2014 PHB and Volo, they're using outdated mechanics and lore, but when they're using MOTM and 2024 PHB that'sd bad because "Orcs have been changed"?

 

[Minigiant]

Do you not understand? The point is, what you can be is not limited by your circumstance of birth.

So any situation where species X is good at Z and species U is good at W are directly contrary to the ethos they are aiming for.

They are not quite there yet, but they are moving in the right direction.

Let me explain it simpler.

Humans, orcs, and elves have different lore, mechanics, and special traits. Half elves and half orcs lore, mechanics, and special traits that humans, orcs, and elves do not have and not in the same combination.

You can say we don't need them. But you can't say orcs and half orcs in 2023 were the same.

 

[Minigiant]

So when others use 2014 PHB and Volo, they're using outdated mechanics and lore, but when they're using MOTM and 2024 PHB that'sd bad because "Orcs have been changed"?

No

I am saying that people are interchanging between the 3 version of Orc when any version is beneficial to their argument.

 

[MoonSong]

"Main" implies it's not the only reason. If you were going to stay behind for any reason, they clearly never had the need to appeal to you. That's how capitalism works.

I was ready to overlook a lot of stuff. I was a sure buy the moment they announced the new books because, hey shiny half-century edition! I remained enthusiastic even after the OGl-gate and the Pinkerton incident -way less, but still eager-.

All of the other concerns were hard, but not impossible to overcome. This one just leaves me wanting to go somewhere else.

 

[Minigiant]

There is two flaws in your analysis.

4e never had playable orcs. They gave some bare bones stats (for "NPCs") in the back of the MM1, but I don't think they ever got a PC writeup. Further, the first attempt at 5e PC orcs had the infamous -2 Int to clearly discourage them from the otherwise similar half-orcs. It's not until the errata'd orc (in Eberron) that orc stats were finally balanced for playing, at that was only a half-dozen years ago.

Further, what lore? Both 4e and 5e imply half-orcs are children of frontier orc/human peaceful contact (rather than the violent background of before) but 5e orcs up to Tasha's were still thralls to Gruumsh and barely able to keep their evil in check (and half-orcs suffered the same curse, tempered by... their human blood!) The lore still placed them as the "more intelligent" orcs, and even the 4e writeup described how they were more "human looking" than regular orcs (the 10% passable rule lives on...). Further, 4e and 5e both talk about how half-orcs faced prejudice by those who hate orcs and have to work to get past it.

I checked the 2014 PHB, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and PHB2 (4e). There is no great distinction in the lore other than "they are orcs made playable due to human blood".

So if you have some super-secret lore dump that clearly spells that half-orcs weren't just PC orcs prior to Tasha, I want citations.

My point is that Half Orcs are or never have been playable Orcs in mechanics and lore in 4e or 5e.

They had distinct mechanics and lore and playing one even if the DM allowed Orc as playable, it stayed distinct.