D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[pemerton]

They have different mechanics and different lore. In 4e they have definite ASI and racial powers.

<snip>

I'm just saying Half Orc and Orc are only redundant if you don't look.

Half Orcs never had a Bonus action Dash.

The 4e D&D PHB2 Half-Orc has the following abilities:

Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Intimidate

Vision: Low-light

Half-Orc Resilience: The first time you are bloodied during an encounter, you gain 5 temporary hit points. The temporary hit points increase to 10 at 11th level and to 15 at 21st level.
Swift Charge: You gain a +2 bonus to speed when charging.
Furious Assault: You have the furious assault power.

Encounter
Free Action * Personal
Trigger: You hit an enemy
Effect: The attack deals 1[W] extra damage if it’s a weapon attack or 1d8 extra damage if it isn’t.​

The 4e D&D MM gives Orcs the following abilities, in its Appendix:

Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Constitution
Languages: Common, Giant

Vision: Low-light

Running Charge: When you charge, add 2 to your speed.
Warrior’s Surge: You can use warrior’s surge as an encounter power.

Encounter * Healing, Weapon
Standard Action * Melee weapon
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and you can spend a healing surge. Increase to 2[W] + Strength modifier damage at 21st level.​

These are not significantly different mechanics. They have the same vision, the same languages, and the same bonus to charge speed. They both have a hp-oriented 1x/encounter ability. Half-Orcs also get a bonus damage die 1x/enc, and get a bonus to DEX rather than CON.

I can't comment on 5e D&D, but your claims about 4e are in my view very exaggerated.

 

[Vaalingrade]

"Half Orcs only exist to play a Orc. Orcs are playable so we don't need Half Orc" doesn't work if Half Orc have evolved past playable Orcs.

So it does work since again, they really haven't.

Only in certain niche situations that have been mostly ignored or downplayed are they anything more than replacement orcs; the orcs we have at home.

That's also where the idea that these two species are inclusive to multiracial people falls flat. They're always defined in terms of being part of something and part of something else, not as a people unto themselves or as a cultural fusion, just a sapient liger bred for their talent with stabbing or statecraft.

Only Eberron and the Netir Vale cared to try and we all know how much action they get from D&D. The base game doesn't care and doesn't want to try. And frankly if they're not going to actually try to do a good job, I'm not going to trust the results of using half their butt.

 

[Vaalingrade]

You mean 4e Essentials?
Yeah to appeal to all the grognards who complained about 4e and left for the OSR or PF1.

And 5e exists as pretty much the same thing. That's why Volo's.

 

[Remathilis]

You mean 4e Essentials?
Yeah to appeal to all the grognards who complained about 4e and left for the OSR or PF1.

So like I said. Old lore to appeal to fans of old editions.

But that's another topic. D&D constantly reverting to old problematic lore or morphing into bland nothingness rather than embracing anything new and flushing it out.

You literally said 4e and 5e. I've cited examples in 4e (HoFK) and 5e (Volos). You don't get to veto them because they contradict your point.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Why are we keeping orcs at all, by that argument? If half-orcs have no reason to exist, and we have goliaths, what for the orcs?

IGoliaths were another "now shut up" race for people who wanted to play Orcs or ogres, imo. 2024 Goliaths in particular made me put them in the same category as Aasimar nd Tieflings - this should be something any species should take to reflect celestial/fiendish/giant herritage in their veins, not a full species

 

[Micah Sweet]

IGoliaths were another "now shut up" race for people who wanted to play Orcs or ogres, imo. 2024 Goliaths in particular made me put them in the same category as Aasimar nd Tieflings - this should be something any species should take to reflect celestial/fiendish/giant herritage in their veins, not a full species

What should count as a full species, in your opinion?

 

[Not a Decepticon]

Is there a narrative reason a species can't have an evil origin? Where you came from doesn't have to determine what you can be, and removing such things narrows the scope of narrative and worldbuilding.

Sometimes you just want to explore the idea of playing a jem'hadar.

There is a very clear difference between being created by an evil entity, through evil means or for evil purpose, and being created through experimenting and selective breeding of an existing group of people for the sole purpose of creating super-soldiers. One is general enough to not upset people, the other is eugenics and thus strikes too close to real life.

Moreover, the fact that this eugenicist origin is used solely to give Half-Orcs some sort of desperate difference between them and Orcs is only further showcasing how little they actually differ. And, I have realized while writing this post, this is literally origin of the Uruk-Hai, who are just Orcs with superficial differences and whom no one ever tried to claim are separate species. Half-Orcs being different from Orcs is similiarly superfficial, so much they do not justify their existence.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

What should count as a full species, in your opinion?

Something that doesn't come with a "I'm special because I have blood of these big important entities of the world (Celestials, Fiends, Giants) in my veins", a line that Goliaths crossed once they got special abilities based on whichever giant blood flows in their veins.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Something that doesn't come with a "I'm special because I have blood of these big important entities of the world (Celestials, Fiends, Giants) in my veins", a line that Goliaths crossed once they got special abilities based on whichever giant blood flows in their veins.

I didn't ask what you think shouldn't count. I asked what you think should. Or is your vision humans with the occasional template for flavor?

 

[Micah Sweet]

There is a very clear difference between being created by an evil entity, through evil means or for evil purpose, and being created through experimenting and selective breeding of an existing group of people for the sole purpose of creating super-soldiers. One is general enough to not upset people, the other is eugenics and thus strikes too close to real life.

Moreover, the fact that this eugenicist origin is used solely to give Half-Orcs some sort of desperate difference between them and Orcs is only further showcasing how little they actually differ. And, I have realized while writing this post, this is literally origin of the Uruk-Hai, who are just Orcs with superficial differences and whom no one ever tried to claim are separate species. Half-Orcs being different from Orcs is similiarly superfficial, so much they do not justify their existence.

Again, I provide the example of the Jem'hadar and the Vorta from DS9. The specific origin of the Jem'hadar is ambiguous (beyond the obvious genetic engineering involved), but the Vorta were literally bred from an existing species for the purpose of developing and enhancing selected traits. From my point of view, neither of these differ in a significant way from the Uruk-Hai, and none of them are narratively off-limts.