D&D (2024) Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

[Minigiant]

This isn't true for 4e D&D. It's not really true for AD&D. I can't comment on 3E or 5e.

It is.

The "half" races and the "full" races are not the same. Even when you take out the ASI, the half elf and elf were never the same. They were unique combinations of traits.

.

Choco-vanilla and choco-mint may taste nice, but if you offer me 8 unique ice cream flavours and half of them are just mixes of the other four, I think I'm well in the right to call out that they're not actually unique.

Unique mechanics doesn't make a race, their flavour makes them the mix of their two parent species, and due to that they honestly don't deserve to be in the starter book alongside basic stuff like "Human" and "Halfling", where you're throwing the simple basic options to show how to play the game. Making complicated stuff like "Oh your parent were X and Y" should be for down the line and later products, you don't need to know how to make them on the basic starter book

Tabaxi and goblins deserve to be in the PHB well before half elves and half orcs because 'cat person' and 'goblin (affectionate)' are widespread, recognisable niches that are unique and stand out as options. Half orcs and half elves are just variants on the existing ones at their core.

I never said half elf and half orc are more deserving than goblin.

I'm just saying contrary to popular belief they have unique mechanics and often to get unique lore. It's just that the community constantly likes to go back to problematic times out of Nostalgia or Money Grubbing which causes them to constantly have problematic lore rather than expanding the non-problematic lore.

How many times has D&D revered back to lore that we now consider problematic?

Instead of taking the kernels of uniqueness in some of these species, we always revert back to the problem times.

 

[pemerton]

The "half" races and the "full" races are not the same. Even when you take out the ASI, the half elf and elf were never the same.

I'm talking about Orcs and Half-Orcs, with particular reference to 4e D&D. See my post above in reply to you: D&D (2024) - Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

 

[Minigiant]

I'm talking about Orcs and Half-Orcs, with particular reference to 4e D&D. See my post above in reply to you: D&D (2024) - Should 2014 Half Elves and Half Orcs be added to the 2025 SRD?

They aren't exactly the same though. Similar in theme but not the same. And when they reached 5e, they diverged. Half orc became the heavy trooper to the orc's shock trooper.

And their lore were both expanded from each other in later books. So their lore shifted.

I could see an argument that half orc be a legacy/lineage of the other.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

And when they reached 5e, they diverged. Half orc became the heavy trooper to the orc's shock trooper.

This is still as much nonsense as it was 100 pages ago. An orc wizard is no more a shock trooper than it is a heavy trooper.

WotC have never designed races around combat roles. They are designed around lore, coolness, and whatever they can cobble together before the deadline in half an hour.

This “combat roles” stuff is something hardcore power gamers such as yourself have seen in crunching the numbers to the nth decimal in a way the designers never do. And since it was never part of the design intent, there is no reason why WotC should support it.

 

[Minigiant]

This is still as much nonsense as it was 100 pages ago. An orc wizard is no more a shock trooper than it is a heavy trooper.

WotC have never designed races around combat roles. They are designed around lore, coolness, and whatever they can cobble together before the deadline in half an hour.

This “combat roles” stuff is something hardcore power gamers such as yourself have seen in crunching the numbers to the nth decimal in a way the designers never do. And since it was never part of the design intent, there is no reason why WotC should support it.

WOTC gave Half Orcs a STr bonus, a melee crit bonus AND an antideath mechanic.

They gave Orcs a STR Bonus and Bonus Action dash.

They designed the two races with natural physical combat roles. It was their limited old school grognard chasing design that caused the ignore the advancement of 3e and 4e and not have it apply to spells at well.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

WOTC gave Half Orcs a STr bonus, a melee crit bonus AND an antideath mechanic.

They gave Orcs a STR Bonus and Bonus Action dash.

They designed the two races with natural physical combat roles.

No, they designed them with abilities they thought would be cool and appropriate lore-wise, with some consistency with the 3rd edition version. They removed the strength bonus along with all other race-based ability score mods because it’s no longer consistent with the ethos of modern D&D.

 

[Minigiant]

No, they designed them with abilities they thought would be cool and appropriate lore-wise, with some consistency with the 3rd edition version. They removed the strength bonus along with all other race-based ability score mods because it’s no longer consistent with the ethos of modern D&D.

They literally gave the face ability that lets the dash as a bonus action. Orcs still have it

Same sing with Savage attacks and resilience.

The designers had a clear gold and roll for the various races in 2014 and they still hang her back to that mentality. You have to remember that when Tasha came out they admitted that they didn't think that people would take classes with suboptimal races..

 

[Paul Farquhar]

They literally gave the face ability that lets the dash as a bonus action. Orcs still have it

They can dash in any direction. Great for a squishy character to run away. They no longer have savage attacks because it’s inconsistent with the current ethos, and dropping to 1 hp instead of falling is great for low hp characters who are busy running away.

The designers had a clear gold and roll for the various races in 2014 and they still hang her back to that mentality

Mostly they just chose stuff that was consistent with previous editions.

You have to remember that when Tasha came out they admitted that they didn't think that people would take classes with suboptimal races..

Which is the point. They are gradually removing features that might make a species better for one class than it is for another, because the ethos is “you can be whatever you want to be.” So savage attacker is out, but bonus action dash is in.

 

[Alzrius]

The standard 3ed half elf gets a free “skill focus” feat, dark vision, keen senses, sleep and charm resistance, and perhaps most significant, they don’t get the constitution penalty that elves got (that really hurts, no matter what your class).

So, basically, a human with elf perks but no drawback.

Half-elves in 3E have low-light vision, not darkvision. Likewise, they don't get Skill Focus, having their skill bonuses set at +1 to Listen, Search, and Spot, and +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information (none of which are described as "keen senses").

You seem to be describing the half-elves of Pathfinder 1E.

 

[Remathilis]

WOTC gave Half Orcs a STr bonus, a melee crit bonus AND an antideath mechanic.

They gave Orcs a STR Bonus and Bonus Action dash.

They designed the two races with natural physical combat roles. It was their limited old school grognard chasing design that caused the ignore the advancement of 3e and 4e and not have it apply to spells at well.

Wotc also originally gave them a -2 Int to reinforce the "stupid orc, smarter half-orc" trope.

Also, a tidbit that left my brain: 4e half-orcs ability ASI are Str/Dex, amended to Dex and STR/Con. 4e Half-orcs are a finesse race.