D&D 5E Should 5E have Healing Surges?

[Naszir]

Why do you need healing surges if your game often has 5 hour RPing sessions?

(sorry, I couldn't resist)

Gotta say though, I hate healing surges. I prefer something a lot less metagamey.

But the question I have to ask pro-healing surge proponents is:

Couldn't WotC come up with a healing mechanism that is better than 3E AND is better than 4E?

What's with this game mechanics marriage that some players have with healing surges? Is the mechanic really that good? Since (in this poll) over 50% of respondents want to get rid of healing surges, shouldn't WotC be looking for something better?

That is why I was trying to advocate for heroic surges that allow the player character to turn a deadly hit to a minimum damage hit. I just thought that type of mechanic fit the narrative better.

 

[KarinsDad]

If there was a differentiation between fatigue and wounds, healing surges would be great. Regardless, I expect there will be a mod(ule) for that.

If there were a differentiation between fatigue and wounds, healing surges wouldn't be needed.

Look at the various incarnations of Champions (i.e. Heroes). The heroes recovered Stun shortly after a combat (or even with the equivalent of Second Wind within combat) and Stun knocked them out. The heroes recovered Body very slowly (unless they had some type of regen).

There is no need for a limit on the amount of Stun recoverable (although there were some long term endurance rules, practically nobody used them).

If Stun (hit points) / Body (wounds) came to 5E, I'd think that this would be a good alternative.

A simple system is:

You have hit points (as per earlier editions). You have Wounds equal to your Con. Every time you take actual damage, you take that many hit points and you take 1 wound. It's simple.

Magic is needed to heal wounds. Clerics could heal wounds (and hit points) in combat, but there typically is no actual need to heal wounds. Heal those after combat.

Magical healing is Daily powers (or Vancian or whatever). Only so many wounds can be healed per day per caster, but everyone gets back their hit points at the end of each encounter.

Second Wind now makes sense. Warlords even make sense (because they are not healing wounds).


A group without any magical healing might need to hole up and really recover after a single day of combat, but that just incentivizes those groups to acquire healing potions (or to get Cleric henchmen or something).


To me, this type of system would be the best of both the 3E and 4E worlds. I'm sure there are people who would hate it.


Edit: You get to zero hit points, you are unconscious. You get to zero wound points, you are dead.

 

[Herschel]

No, it doesn't work like that. The only way to use a surge by your own in combat (and I'm assuming you mean in combat, because you said "rescue"), is by using a second wind, that's only once per encounter and it uses your standard action for that turn.

The cleric is still needed to trigger other healing surges (and he also provides additional healing), only now the healer role is also available to other classes and it doesn't relegate the cleric to being a healbot.

And you missed one other VERY important point in a "rescue". You can't just take your second wind when you're unconscious.

 

[KarinsDad]

Another "metagamey" example:

Players discussing which cure wounds spells to cast on each party member to maximize the total healing effect.

The game already includes a lot of metagame elements. Cure spells and healing surges both fit that bill.

One more than the other.

One makes narrative sense (a spellcaster heals me).

The other doesn't (I heal myself, how do I do that? err, ah, shut up, it just happens, ok?).

 

[Nebulous]

I'd much rather see 5E create a system that makes severe injury and death more realistic, interesting, and fun, rather than see healing surges be sacrificed on the altar of trying to turn HP damage into something it is not.

Like Warhammer had? You could lose limbs and eyes and a torso off a chart? i would be fine with that actually, but i think it is far more lethal than what most D&D players expect.

Honestly, i don't see a solution to this problem of hit points vs. surges. Ease of play and realism is going to create endless controversy.

 

[Herschel]

One of the most intense "group moments" is when one character rescues another by healing him. 4e has largely taken that away with the introduction of healing surges.

Now it's "everyone surges for himself".

All that to "liberate" the Cleric so that he can now be just like the Wizard?!

Every point you make is, well, incorrect.

1. If you're unconscious, you need someone to trigger a surge for you, you can't do it for yourself. If you've used your second wind already and it's not a leader's healing power, that heal check just stabilizes you and you're still out.

2. Again, you can't just spend your surges at-will.

3. Actually, it lets clerics do things besides be healbots. It's really rather awesome. The Cleric has very little in common with the wizard, most builds are melee characters (though you can play a ranged cleric, even with a bow).

 

[Naszir]

Every point you make is, well, incorrect.

1. If you're unconscious, you need someone to trigger a surge for you, you can't do it for yourself. If you've used your second wind already and it's not a leader's healing power, that heal check just stabilizes you and you're still out.

That is not completely true is it? If you roll a nat 20 on a death save you can use a healling surge.

 

[Fede]

Yes, while that is true, it's not really a reliable option, I'd say that Herschel's point remains valid.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Okay, say a person has taken HP damage (battered and a little tired). They are cured (Cleric, Warlord, whatever). They lose a healing surge. They are no longer battered and tired.

They take another wound, and are battered and a little tired. They are cured. They lose a second healing surge. They are no longer battered and tired.

They take a third wound, and, again, are battered and a little tired. They are cured. They lose a second healing surge. They are no longer battered and tired.

This happens until they are no longer able to be healed (no more healing surges), at which point, this "battered and tired" condition in the fiction sticks. My question is, why is that?

If, on the other hand, it's "they take HP damage, are battered and tired, and then are healed, making them less battered and tired", my question becomes why can magic only makes scrapes a little bit better, and why does a second casting not heal their wound completely?

The answer to all of this comes down to "because healing surges reflect the physical limits of the person being healed." They represent some physical element that exists in finite quantities that are necessary for healing to take place. Fortunately such a physical element is easy to identify, since such thing exist quite readily in reality. Blood platelets, blood cells, endorphins, adrenaline, ATP, glucose, amino acids, vitamins... Healing surges are an abstract representation of the physical resources the body has available to manage pain and reduce the effect of injury. Abilities that spend a healing surge merely trigger the use of these resources. The fact that the body can easily replenish these resources, even in reality, is also why a good meal and a night's sleep (AKA an extended rest) can bring back healing surges.

That is, magic will never heal serious wounds (thanks to Schrodinger's wounds there's never a point when a creature is "dying" other than if it eventually dies). Magic will lessen scrapes and bruises. This means that serious wounds cannot occur. Light wounds cannot even be removed. Why is there such a restriction on the fiction?

I'm not sure what you mean by "light wounds cannot even be removed", but I will again reiterate: D&D's serious injury rules are nonexistant, and its death and dying rules are terrible. I'm very much in agreement with you there. It's not really applicable to a discussion of healing surges, if you ask me, but I will agree with you.

That's what I don't want in 5e. I don't want one way for the fiction to always unfold. I want the game to have the ability to dish out light wounds or serious wounds. I want the story to unfold from that. Low HP dealt (heals overnight): light wound. High HP dealt: serious wound. THP-only dealt: dodged, but slightly winded you.

I want the fiction to be absolutely filled with options that can result from standard play. If I'm forced into "magic bandages scrapes and bruises, and no PC can ever truly be dying unless he winds up dead" then I'm going to object to 5e's HP system (just as I do for 4e and 3.Xe, to differing degrees).

I want the fiction to make sense in-game, and the relatively flimsy "only light wound occur, unless someone dies, but magic can make light wounds slightly more light, and nothing beyond that even with multiple castings" is going to strain my suspension of disbelief pretty profoundly.

But, again, that's me. I have a pretty simulationist viewpoint, and since I look at things from an angle of "how does this ability translate directly into the fiction?", it causes a disconnect from a certain healthy level of hand-waving.

Thanks for the reply, but I just can't buy into the healing surge and hit point system as described by you and Kingreaper. I know it's all subjective, so I'm certainly not saying you're wrong. It just doesn't click with me. It screams "this is here for balance, not to model the fiction" to me, where it seems it's not the case to you (or others in this thread). You're not wrong, we just disagree. As always, play what you like

I suppose it is never easy to convince somewhat to switch over to your world view... I do appreciate that you've made as much effort as you have in trying to understand out view, though.

This is true, and I want to be able to experience nearly any story. Always healing overnight takes away stories (just as always healing slowly would). Healing being limited by healing surges takes away stories (just as healing without limits does).

This extends to long range teleportation, divination, and the like. It's hard to balance, but on the note of healing, the game would be dictating the fiction to me in a very narrow way (as I've described upthread). It's good for one style of play or one viewpoint, but it is not very inclusive, nor is it overwhelmingly popular (even if it is popular).

Story and game mechanics should not be enemies, but they should not hold me to a style of game that I don't like. People love 4e because it's so easy to reskin and reflavor, but when it comes to it's "HP works this way, and produces this story in the fiction, or it doesn't make sense"? I'd rather that not be the case.

It is indeed a sad truth that, while game mechanics and stories should not be enemies, any game mechanic will be the enemy of some story. This is why the term "implied setting", despite being overused and misapplied far more times than I can count, is still a useful one. No version of D&D can be all-inclusive of every kind of story. To be honest, I'm not sure if even free-form roleplaying without game rules can be all-inclusive of every kind of story. That is why trying to pursue such all-inclusiveness is probably an impossibility.

All you can do is try to include as much as you can while still providing a high quality of gameplay.

Like Warhammer had? You could lose limbs and eyes and a torso off a chart? i would be fine with that actually, but i think it is far more lethal than what most D&D players expect.

Honestly, i don't see a solution to this problem of hit points vs. surges. Ease of play and realism is going to create endless controversy.

I'm not sure if losing limbs and eyes is where I would start, exactly... Even just covering the basics like sprained ankles, eyes that are so swollen that you can't see out of them, dislocated shoulders, and broken bones would be a significant improvement.

 

[Someone]

But the question I have to ask pro-healing surge proponents is:

Couldn't WotC come up with a healing mechanism that is better than 3E AND is better than 4E?

Absolutely, and if they do I'll welcome it.

I like the surge system more than the previous editions' healing paradigms, though I see it's defects and I'm not married to it or it's particular implementation. If WotC can come up with a set of rules that has the same (IMHO) advantages (long term resource management, healing is dependant on the recipient, healing is not neccesarily divine...) I won't shed a tear for the healing surges.