D&D (2024) Should bring back diverse spellcaster level design.

[cbwjm]

Yeah, that sounds cool. I really don’t like the direction they went with conjurers being all about teleporting instead of summoning. Maybe there should be a summoner.

I'm definitely someone where the term conjurer summons up images of dark robed ritualists summoning up demons and elementals for power thanks primarily to all of the old Conan the Barbarian and other sword and sorcery books I've read over the years. I think it would be good to split the current conjurer subclass into two, one focused on summoning, the other teleportation.

 

[nevin]

it wasn't a bad idea in the earlier editions. However in editions where classes get feats that may give them access to abilities from other classes it turns into a problem. I don't know the feats in 5e but a perfect example in PF is wizard's can take a discovery feat that lets them use alchemists recipes and convert them to spells. But Alchemists get certain spells at different levels because they are a hybrid class and if a DM doesn't pay attention you'll have a wizard casting some spells before the clerics and other classes get them. things like Greater Restoration.

I think it's just easier and less detail to remember if spell levels are standardized. I used to like all the crunchy complicated stuff but it just gets in the way of the fun, or at least slows the game way down for those who do enjoy it.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Mechanical complexity is a small price to pay to make things less samey!

 

[jmartkdr2]

It kind of is, but in pathfinder 2e it is split into 4 lists: Arcane, Divine, Primal, and Occult (or eldritch or something, I always forget the name of the 4th one. I looked it up, it was Occult). Then the different classes gain access to a specific list.

Arcane: wizard
Divine: cleric, paladin
Primal: druid, ranger
Occult: bard, witch
Sorcerer: check your bloodline. Might be the same with the witch, I'd have to reread core rules again (actually, it looks like the witch isn't out in Pathfinder 2e, or at least not in the books I have for it.).

I've been reading the old d20 WoW RPG and I quite liked how they worked. You have the main arcanist or healer list that everyone had access to, and then your path (subclass) gave you access to additional spells. Warlocks got conjuration, necromancers got necromancy, makes got various arcane spells. Same with the healer class and the priest, druid, and shaman paths. I'm somewhat tempted to ask my friends if they want to play that system next.

FYI: witch is by patron, Magus is arcane only, Summoner varies by tradition, and Oracles are divine. There's also some optional rules for going beyond that, including an alternative elemental spell list.

I like the general idea but don't like the actual breakdown of the lists.

 

[cbwjm]

FYI: witch is by patron, Magus is arcane only, Summoner varies by tradition, and Oracles are divine. There's also some optional rules for going beyond that, including an alternative elemental spell list.

I like the general idea but don't like the actual breakdown of the lists.

Which book is the witch in? I thought I'd seen it but that may have been the playtest documents. I assume the oracle is also in the same book. I spotted the summoner when I went looking for the witch, also found the magus which is also arcane.

I tend to buy pathfinder books more out of interest than anything, not sure I'd be able to get my friends to try it out, though maybe I could run a one-shot.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm definitely someone where the term conjurer summons up images of dark robed ritualists summoning up demons and elementals for power thanks primarily to all of the old Conan the Barbarian and other sword and sorcery books I've read over the years. I think it would be good to split the current conjurer subclass into two, one focused on summoning, the other teleportation.

I think this is a great thing to look at and think about...

As I said above, the "specialist school" structure as/for "Wizards 31 flavors," it might be very cool for the next edition (and other systems) to take the various flavors of specialists and make them different casters...not just different "wizards."

To pull in the mechanical differentiations suggested by the OP, and elaborated/added to by myself, we'd have a game wherein you have something like:

"Evokers": The "Full caster," spell levels (cantrip) 1-9, from 1st level

• Arcane: The Mage (nee wizard): Spells, spells, and more spells. All the spells. Magic Use is their thing. They use magic, primarily through spells. Slot progression. Combination spell prep and spontaneous selection mechanic added at higher levels.
• Psychic: The Psychic (nee "psion"): Mental Powers: telepaths (communications, direct mind attacks/defenses, illusions), empaths (healers & emotion control/support), telekinetics ("force" mages, specific element kineticists), clairvoyants (seers, psi-rogues). Point progression. Accumulate different powers, tricks/stunts that can be done with those powers, use as much as you want as long as you have the points to do so.
• The Illusionist: straddles the magics betwixt arcane and psychic with enchantments, phantasms, mind influencing/warping.
• The Witch: spell list straddles arcane and nature spells, plus innate supernatural powers ("Witch's Crafts"), access to alternate types of spells (arcane and divine), psychic abilities, and occult powers through features, potions.
• The Conjurer: spell list straddles arcane and divine spells, plus ritual and diagramatic use of non-divine magics, "ceremonial magics," binding circles/diagrams, et al, conjurations (of spirits, demons, undead, etc...)

"Invokers": The "3/4 caster," Channeling powers from 1st level, spell levels 1-6, from 3rd level:

• Divine: The Cleric: Channeling Divine powers (turn undead, sense divine, domain power) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or domain) 2nd level and every 4 levels after. Spell use: 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 6th level spells at 13th level.
• Nature: The Druid: Channeling Nature powers (pass without trace, sense nature, shapeshift, etc...) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or domain) 2nd level and every 4 levels after. Spell use: 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 6th level spells at 13th level.
• Psychic: The Oracle/Diviner: Channeling Mental powers (auger, sense mind, devotion power) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or devotion) 2nd level and every 4 levels after. Spell use: 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 6th level spells at 13th level.
• Arcane: The Theurgist: Channeling Arcane powers (summon servant, sense magic, circle power) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or circle) 2nd level and every 4 levels after. Spell use: 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 6th level spells at 13th level.

"Occultists": The "Half caster," Channeling powers and cantrips from 1st level, spell levels 1-5, from 3rd level:

• Arcane: The Warlock: Channeling Arcane Energies (eldritch blast, sense magic, patron power) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or patron) 2nd level and every 3 levels after. Spell use: Cantrips at 1st level, 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 5th level spells at 15th level, additional/different spells by channeling/patron powers.
• Divine: The Shaman: Channeling Spirit [World] powers (entreat aid, sense spirit, etc... ) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or patron) 2nd level and every 3 levels after. Spell use: Cantrips at 1st level, 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 5th level spells at 15th level, additional/different spells by channeling/spirit powers.
• Nature: The Bard: Channeling Nature powers (inspire courage, sense trouble, college power) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or college) 2nd level and every 3 levels after. Spell use: Cantrips at 1st level, 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 5th level spells at 15th level, additional/different spells by channeling/college powers.
• Psychic: The Ascetic/Shukenja: Channeling Chi/Ki powers (stunning fist, sense danger, devotion power) at 1st level. Additional channeling powers (by class or devotion) 2nd level and every 3 levels after. Spell use: Cantrips at 1st level, 1st level spells at 3rd level, caps 5th level spells at 15th level, additional/different spells by channeling/patron powers.

"Dabblers" (working title): The "Third [Quarter?] caster," if such things are necessary to differentiate, Non-spell supernatural powers from 1st level, spell levels 1-3, from 5th level:

• Arcane: The "Eldritch Knight"/spellblade/what have you arcane fighter-mage dude: enchant(ed) weapon, sorcerous strike (arcane smite), sorcerous shield, minimal arcane spell use
• Divine: The Paladin: same ole typical paladin divine powers, channelled smites, minimal divine spell use
• Nature: The Warden: magical ranger, nature channelled powers (including shapeshifting), "primal strike" (nature magic smite), minimal nature spell use (the standard Ranger class should be spell-less!)
• Psychic: Either the Psi-warrior "Jedi" dude or the standard chi-manifesting Monk.

Random Aside******
Honestly, I lean more and more every year toward "Necromancer" being a prestige-style class. Define "Necromancy" as magic-working with the energies/powers of the negative energy plane, real "Dark Wizard" stuff. This makes it a sort of "forbidden" thing that just about anyone who can use magic (mages, clerics, warlocks, theurgists, even druids...) can "fall into" or become ensnared by (or purposely enamored with)...and eventually corrupted and turned evil, even if that isn't their original intent.

For the "what about a 'good necromancer'?" crowd...that has only and always been an oxymoron to me. And I've played with my share...or, at least, neutral/"non-evil" aligned ones. BUT we can make a mirror image "Positive energy" focused magic-user. Same kind of prestige-class style set up that can be "added" to any other caster archetype. The flip-side to a "necromancer" that I like to call a "Vivoker." They study/find/are attuned to/practice "vivocation," the "positive energy, healing, radiant damage, life magic" stuff.
*****************

 

[steeldragons]

Which book is the witch in? I thought I'd seen it but that may have been the playtest documents. I assume the oracle is also in the same book. I spotted the summoner when I went looking for the witch, also found the magus which is also arcane.

I tend to buy pathfinder books more out of interest than anything, not sure I'd be able to get my friends to try it out, though maybe I could run a one-shot.

The Witch (and Summoner and Oracle) are in the "Advanced Players Guide."

For PF1. I don't know if/where they are for PF2.

 

[cbwjm]

The Witch (and Summoner and Oracle) are in the "Advanced Players Guide."

For PF1. I don't know if/where they are for PF2.

Thanks, I google advanced player's guide and the 2e edition of it came up. Witch, Oracle, Investigator, and Swashbuckler are the classes represented in the book. Kind of curious to see what the investigator is like.

I realise now that I probably could have done the same earlier, just googled pathfinder 2e and witch and it likely would have got me to the same place.

Damn, the Paizo website won't let me sign in, I'll have to get back to it later to try and buy the pdf.

 

[steeldragons]

Thanks, I google advanced player's guide and the 2e edition of it came up. Witch, Oracle, Investigator, and Swashbuckler are the classes represented in the book. Kind of curious to see what the investigator is like.

I realise now that I probably could have done the same earlier, just googled pathfinder 2e and witch and it likely would have got me to the same place.

Damn, the Paizo website won't let me sign in, I'll have to get back to it later to try and buy the pdf.

Interesting. The PF1 Advanced guide was Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, and Witch.

Looks like they went for a straight "big 4/core class archetypes" and that's all. Investigator, in PF, is generally used as a Fighter sub-archetype. Witch is the "arcane caster/wizard" sub-archetype. Oracle the "divine caster/cleric" sub-type. Swashbuckler, clearly, the Rogue-related sub-type.

 

[cbwjm]

Interesting. The PF1 Advanced guide was Alchemist, Cavalier, Inquisitor, Oracle, Summoner, and Witch.

Looks like they went for a straight "big 4/core class archetypes" and that's all. Investigator, in PF, is generally used as a Fighter sub-archetype. Witch is the "arcane caster/wizard" sub-archetype. Oracle the "divine caster/cleric" sub-type. Swashbuckler, clearly, the Rogue-related sub-type.

I think Alchemist has become such a popular class in PF that they put it in the core book. The summoner was in Secrets of Magic which is where I thought I saw the witch but it was only the magus and the summoner. I'm wondering if they'll add the cavalier or if that's going to (or already has, might find out when I can access the Paizo website and buy the advanced player's guide) become an archetype that can be added onto any class.