D&D (2024) Should bring back diverse spellcaster level design.

Dausuul

Legend
I really liked the subtle differences in spellcasting mechanics that different core classes had for a short time during 5e playtest, but I am not so sure about different max spells level... I don't see a particular value in that kind of variety.

I mean, it could be different (and I would not care much if multiclassing becomes more complicated) but it wouldn't feel important to me.
I agree, I would not want to renumber spell levels. It's already bad enough that we have "character levels" and "class levels" and "spell levels," without having spell level mean different things to different classes.

However, you don't actually need to renumber the spell levels for the OP's proposal to work. It's just a matter of pruning spell lists and removing spell slots. For example, you could strike all spells of levels 2, 4, 6, and 8 from the bard list, and remove all slots of those levels from the bard progression. The result would be equivalent to what the OP proposes; bards have five levels of spells instead of nine, opening up headroom for more nonspell class features. It's just that the bard spell levels are numbered 1,3,5,7,9 instead of 1,2,3,4,5*.

*It is true that either solution would completely break spellcaster multiclassing. To which I say: Meh. Multiclassing already doesn't work well in 5E, it didn't work well in 3E, and it didn't work well in AD&D either. Broken thing stays broken. I have thoughts on how 5.5E should handle multiclassing, but this is not the thread for that.
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I'll say the quiet part out loud. Bring back Dual-Classing! It's hard to qualify for, and makes your character function as a member of their new class, only allowing them to mix and match abilities at higher level.

(Am I serious or joking? I'll never tell).
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Hmmm, the wheels are spinning... spitballin' on a Wed. afternoon... for a possible framework for lessening spell dependency of certain casters and differentiating caster types...

Mages, and other magic-users who access Arcane Magic spell lists learn/study/practice their spells. The standard spell progression we know. Casting mech's are basically the same. Spell levels 0 (cantrips)-thru-8. Cantrips are still at will. Intelligence is still the casting ability. Except for cantrips, which have no limit, you may only ever learn/know/have as many spells, per spell level, as your Int. modifier + Prof bonus. Specialist concepts: Illusionists, Conjurers, etc... operate by this method as well, with slightly different class features and individual spell lists. They have the same cantrips and unlimited access to their spell lists, but can only ever know Int. mod. spells that are not on their particular specialist magic list. Illusionists, for example, will have all of the same illusions, enchantments, some conjurations, that the general mage can know, but also have other illusions, enchantments, etc... that a general mage would never get access to. But things like Magic Missile or Fireball would be outside their spell list and so, require taking one of those limited spots.

Clerics and other magic-users who access Divine Magic spell lists channel holy/positive (or unholy/negative) energies. Their spell use does not kick in before 3rd level. They receive a more limited spell progression - their lists only go to/through 6 circles. You have access to all spells of the 1st and 2nd circle. Cast them as needed with your available channels. Beyond 2nd level spells, you know only those you select, cast with your channels, "Spells known" casting, in the 5e vernacular, specifically granted magic. Channeling different powers and bonus/domain spells form an added "final" circle of magic, giving them the divine number of 7 tiers of magic, all together. You number of channels per day is bolstered by your Wisdom modifier.

Druids and other magic-users who access Nature Magic spell lists attune and intuit to the primeval energies and mystic ways of the natural and physical world. They have a spell progression that begins with cantrips, but then only progresses to 6 spell levels. You know all spells on your list but are limited by your slots, as most casters of arcane magics. Additionally, they know how to invoke (channel) the spirits and powers of the elements and natural forces to channel magical effects upon themselves: moving unseen, tranforming to beasts, opening pathways to the land of faerie, etc... Your Charisma modifier is added to your spell slots per day.

Psychics and others who may access Mental Powers lists draw power from within their own expanded or enlightened minds, bizarre bloodlines, and/or awakened souls. They use a power point system that fuels the manifestation of their powers that range from "0" point cantrip-style abilities to powers equivalent in power to 8th level arcane spells. Your Int. modifier adds to your daily points.

Warlocks and others who may access Mystic Powers lists draw power from an external, non-divine, source: a powerful magical being (fae , demon, dragon, etc...), cosmic force, universal ideal (alignment), or some combination thereof. You use a power point system to fuel the manifestation of the powers you are granted by your source (or siphon from the cosmos or absorb through some mystical connection). So you have a list of specific powers(features) that you channel and set spell slots, with specific/chosen "spells known." You receive cantrips (usable at will) at level 1. Other spell progression doesn't kick in until 3rd level and doesn't extend beyond 5th level spells. Your additional magical powers are granted by your source to give powers/access at higher levels to chosen singular effects equivalent to 6-8 level spells. This model would produce those who are "magical" primarily with/due to supernatural powers, and spell use is a secondary or tertiary consideration for the class. Warlocks (the arcane) can still spam eldritch blast and receive patron flavor powers; Bards (the nature) still inspire/bolster allies and enchant foes; Paladins (the divine) still smite and have invoke combat bonuses and defensive auras; and Shamans (the psychic) can entreat spirit allies and invoke various powers through the different entities they befriend (or enslave!); all are part of this group. Your Charisma modifier adds to your magical powers -either allowing additional channeling or bonus points.

I dunno. I think that's a solid system. The last group, just by virtue of having the combination of mechanical options, is a "more complex" class...but then, those classes are supposed to be more unique and rare individuals. Doesn't seem/sound "too" complex...to me. Doesn't seem like a "3e" style of confusion or option paralysis.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Actually, I just had my 1e PHB open due to another discussion, and the xp table for Magic Users only went up to 18th level!

EDIT: Oops, I missed it "375,000 xp per level beyond 18th". Well then, as I was!

The 2e PHB, which I'm more familiar with, only went up to 20th.
 

This strikes me as a solution in search of a problem.

I do think half caster spells should be balanced to be relevant when they are gained. Junk like ranger damage spells need to be worth their action economy. You do see this with Paladin spells somewhat. No surprise, since the devs bent over backwards to shower them with goodies.

The solution to casters feeling the same, is to gut casters (the solution for all balance and flavor issues). D&D casters do WAAAAY too much. Restore spheres. Limit Wizards to 4 schools. There, no casters feel unique and it helps martial balance.

Also, having magical abilities that are not spells will achieve this better than having a spell with a different level depending on the class. Book of 9 Swords "encounter based" classes. Psionics in the 2nd edition model. Incarnates. While we're at it, bring back the Binder.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
It's better than 2e Paladin spellcasting, where it was barely worth doing. Though I do miss 3e Paladin and Ranger spells, they had some really neat options.
 


Horwath

Legend
5th level spell should be at power level of 5th level spell, if some class gets 5th level spells later than other, well, sucks to be them in that department. We can only hope that other class features make up for the difference.

But, I agree that there could be more caster level progressions than full, 1/2 and 1/3. 1/3rd casters seems a bit slow, might convert it to 2/5th casters(as in new spell level every 5 levels instead of 6), they still only get 4th levels spells, but at a little more reasonable rate.

Class levelFull caster 1/12/3rd caster1/2 caster2/5th caster
111--
2111-
32111
4 2211
53221
63222
74322
84322
95332
105432
116433
126433
137543
147543
158543
168644
179654
189654
1910754
2010754

Yes, I belive 10th level spells should be a thing. Just a nice penultimate class feature at 19th level.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
The other way, of course, if people don't like breaking down/differentiating casters by their "kinds" of magic, then it could be done by -properly- changing where classes sit in the "full-or-some percentage" caster across all kinds of magic.

That is, what I mean is, give every "type" of magic its 9 levels. How much of those 9 levels you gain access to is purely a matter of class. I would further attach the spell casting abilities to help even those out.

Full Caster: Int.
(9 spell levels)
3/4 Caster: Wis.
(access 7th level)
Half Caster: Cha.
(access 5th level)
1/4 Caster: any
(access 3rd level)
Arcane MagicMage/WizardWitchSwordmage/Bladecaster (PF style "Magus")"Eldritch Knight,"
"Arcane Trickster"
Divine Magic"Invoker/Incanter?"
(some all-caster priest/cleric)
ClericPaladinMonk
Nature MagicDruidShamanBardRanger (if you insist on spell-ranger)
Occult MagicPsychic/Psion"Dragon sorcerer," Psi-Warrior, et al.Warlock"Shadowalker,"
"Soulknife," et al.
 

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