D&D 5E Should D&D 5e have Epic Levels?

[dave2008]

The thread's title says "Should D&D 5e have Epic Levels?"

There is no such a thing in the game currently.

Yep, I have made the same observation in this very thread!

However, that is not quite true (see links provided earlier). There is no such thing provided by WotC.

 

[dave2008]

Stuff like Wish would only be available to a PC who has an Epic Destiny, while the level 9 spells that are just damage are available to any level 17+ full caster of the right class.

Fantastic is good, epic shouldn’t be unavoidable. Stuff like the longevity capstone abilities are the sort of things that belong in epic destinies, IMO.

I’d also add ten more levels where you get 2 more ASI’s, but no increases to proficiency bonus. I’d still want figures like Tiamat to be a hard fight, at any level.

OK, you didn't reply directly to my questions and have confused me further. So what I am understanding now is:

• you want lvls 1-20 pretty much as is, but no wish and non-damage 9th lvl spells?
• Those spells are available for epic destinies which you get when? Any time, level 17, level 20, lvl 21?
• You want 10 more levels of game play that you are still not epic, getting 2 ASI/feats, but no proficiency upgrade?

Fantastic is good, epic shouldn’t be unavoidable.

What does this mean?

 

[Vael]

If I ever get to level 20, I'll let you know ... I have yet to see a campaign go past level 9.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Most campaigns through the history of D&D barely go past 10th level. And in 5e, many classes' levels 11-20 aren't exactly robust. So I voted no. I'd want classes (especially those that aren't full casters) to get nice things 11-20 before epic levels ever came into consideration.

 

[Charlaquin]

Frankly, levels 11-20 already are epic levels. The vast majority of campaigns end by or before the time the PCs reach 10th level, and the devs have said that they seriously considered making 5e only go to 10th level, but feedback indicated that 20 levels of progression was one of those essential “feels like D&D” things.

I certainly wouldn’t be bothered by levels being added above 20th, but I wouldn’t personally get any use out of them. I’ve barely gotten any use out of levels above like 12th.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

OK, you didn't reply directly to my questions and have confused me further. So what I am understanding now is:

• you want lvls 1-20 pretty much as is, but no wish and non-damage 9th lvl spells?
• Those spells are available for epic destinies which you get when? Any time, level 17, level 20, lvl 21?
• You want 10 more levels of game play that you are still not epic, getting 2 ASI/feats, but no proficiency upgrade?

What does this mean?

I mean, I'm not going to point by point your questions. That just isn't a thing.

I didn't say anything about only getting damaging 9th level spells. I said that the simple spells like those that just deal damage are fine, while world shaking spells like Wish are inherently Epic.

I said in the first post you replied to that Epic gameplay should be a layer added optionally to the game. If that isn't clear enough, it refers to something like Themes or Epic Destinies. It doesn't replace anything, it's just an additional thing that you "turn on" when the story calls for it, and the PCs become Epic Heroes.

"You want 10 more levels of game play that you are still not epic, getting 2 ASI/feats, but no proficiency upgrade?"
Yes. Up to 30 levels of gameplay, wherein the PCs are still mortal people who have to worry about eating and sleeping in a safe place and still age and (most of whom) can still get sick and die from tuberculosis.

Upgrading proficiency would take level 30 PCs completely outside the realm of being threatened by even an army of low level creatures, which is exactly what I don't want.

Epic abilities would include things like universal DR that does eventually make it so that an MM goblin just cannot kill you without getting several crits or having a magic item, and gaining legendary resistance and actions, being able to make a home base that gives you lair actions, and eventually gaining a Mythic Transformation trait, as well as many Epic Destinies having some sort of immortality/ascension/legacy feature.

At that point, supernatural gifts, epic boons, etc, could also easily have filled the role of "Epic Levels", but I'd be all for a 10 level spread of Epic abilities which can be either used in 10 consecutive levels, or given every 3-5 levels to spread it out over the entire campaign, along with some stuff that comes online for each class if the character is Epic. That way, if you want to make the game epic from level 1, you could, and each class would look like they do in the PHB, if not a big stronger, and you'd also gain something Epic and related to your Destiny at every tier level, or you could just have the classes boosted, and have the Epic Destiny features start at level 20.

Options. I like them.


As for what the last thing meant, you equated fantastical with epic. I clarified that I don't see them as equivalent or even strongly synonymous. Comprehend Language is fantastical, but it certainly isn't epic. Fantastical is great, i'm all for it. Epic should be optional.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Frankly, levels 11-20 already are epic levels. The vast majority of campaigns end by or before the time the PCs reach 10th level, and the devs have said that they seriously considered making 5e only go to 10th level, but feedback indicated that 20 levels of progression was one of those essential “feels like D&D” things.

I certainly wouldn’t be bothered by levels being added above 20th, but I wouldn’t personally get any use out of them. I’ve barely gotten any use out of levels above like 12th.

They made the right choice. Levels 10-15 or so, IMO, are decidedly not Epic. They're part of the same game, for my group and many others, as levels 5-10. A 10 level DnD wouldn't be uninteresting to us because of legacy or tradition. We don't care at all about either of those things. I personally absolutely and passionately despise traditionalism. A 10 level DnD would be uninteresting to us because we don't enjoy long stretches without gaining new abilities, and we don't enjoy short campaigns. We would have just modified 4e or Star Wars Saga Edition to fix the things that annoyed us, and not bothered with 5e.

 

[Li Shenron]

I voted no.

5e already has some over-the-top abilities before level 20, if you want a wacky campaign with an epic feel.

Extending levels beyond 20 will likely results either in inflated numbers (which don't change the game) or in a non-practical game.

If it's just more epic boons, sure why not.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I voted no.

5e already has some over-the-top abilities before level 20, if you want a wacky campaign with an epic feel.

Extending levels beyond 20 will likely results either in inflated numbers (which don't change the game) or in a non-practical game.

If it's just more epic boons, sure why not.

I definitely agree in terms of the default game. I think they made the right choice.
If they'd had made 5e a 1-30 game, you would have to use all those levels in order to ever tell stories about going into the abyss and murdering Orcus or whatever, and I think it works better that Epic Boons and such make it so that you can effectively do that, but giving Epic boons and other stuff at regular XP intervals or milestones, or you can give epic boons as the story calls for them, starting at whatever level you want, and potentially have a team that can face Orcus before they are even at level 20.

 

[Charlaquin]

They made the right choice. Levels 10-15 or so, IMO, are decidedly not Epic. They're part of the same game, for my group and many others, as levels 5-10. A 10 level DnD wouldn't be uninteresting to us because of legacy or tradition. We don't care at all about either of those things. I personally absolutely and passionately despise traditionalism. A 10 level DnD would be uninteresting to us because we don't enjoy long stretches without gaining new abilities, and we don't enjoy short campaigns. We would have just modified 4e or Star Wars Saga Edition to fix the things that annoyed us, and not bothered with 5e.

Personally, I think it would have made the most sense to focus the design around the typical play experience, which would mean 10 levels. But, we got 20 levels because 5e was a hardcore appeal to traditionalism (which I agree with you in disliking, but it is what it is.)

I’m also not sure how a 10-level campaign is short. Even at one session a week and leveling up every other session on average (both very generous assumptions in my opinion), that’s 5 months. Factor in any sessions that have to get cancelled and you’re looking at half a year, or a whole year if you play every other week.