Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?

[Conaill]

"Ack so do we save her and i lose my status or do we watch her burn and i lose my status"

Yawn. Just off the top of my head:

- The Paladin could appeal her classification as "witch". With what you've said, she could be a cleric for all we know.

- The Paladin could offer the authorities/village/mayor money in return for her release, with his promise that he'll personally escort her out of the village/city/country. Banishment is better than death.

I could probably think of a few other ideas if I took a couple of minutes. Sure, the DM could still close off those solutions, but the important thing is to try! Again, I would judge the Paladin based on his *effort* to find an alternative solution. He may eventually need to choose Good over Law (or vice versa), but not until he's exhausted other avenues.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Yawn. Just off the top of my head:

- The Paladin could appeal her classification as "witch". With what you've said, she could be a cleric for all we know.

- The Paladin could offer the authorities/village/mayor money in return for her release, with his promise that he'll personally escort her out of the village/city/country. Banishment is better than death.

I could probably think of a few other ideas if I took a couple of minutes. Sure, the DM could still close off those solutions, but the important thing is to try! Again, I would judge the Paladin based on his *effort* to find an alternative solution. He may eventually need to choose Good over Law (or vice versa), but not until he's exhausted other avenues.

The problem with the catch 22 situations is the GM does close off the alternatives. If the answer was even remotely as simple as asking if he could escort her out of town it woudln't be a catch 22 situation. You as a DM may be willing to give an A for effort, but that's not what people are talking about with the catch22 situations for the paladin. The point of most of the catch22 situations is the society your in is screwed up. So if your lawful, your not doing good. And the vast majority of the times it's put in place just to screw with the paladin. So all these 3rd option things just don't work. Gms try to sound like it's supposed to be some momentus roleplaying decision, when it just boils down to screwing with the paladin.

 

[jgbrowning]

Gms try to sound like it's supposed to be some momentus roleplaying decision, when it just boils down to screwing with the paladin.

Conversely you can look at it as if the person playing the paladin is trying to screw the DM out of making a (relativly) realistic world where sometimes the only choices are choices between the lesser of two evils, because if the GM does do that, the player gets upset and says the DM is trying to screw his paladin.

its all perception.

edit: realized this could sound jerkish, so i thought i'd expand on my thoughts.

Paladins (at least the way most people seem to view them on this board), and the rigidness of their code are only truly suitable in environments that more closly mimic high-fantasy than other types of fantasy because high-fantasy ignores the catch-22 situations that more realistic fantasy addresses.

joe b.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Conversely you can look at it as if the person playing the paladin is trying to screw the DM out of making a (relativly) realistic world where sometimes the only choices are choices between the lesser of two evils, because if the GM does do that, the player gets upset and says the DM is trying to screw his paladin.

its all perception.

edit: realized this could sound jerkish, so i thought i'd expand on my thoughts.

Paladins (at least the way most people seem to view them on this board), and the rigidness of their code are only truly suitable in environments that more closly mimic high-fantasy than other types of fantasy because high-fantasy ignores the catch-22 situations that more realistic fantasy addresses.

joe b.

I can agree with that, but one of two things should happen if your not playing in the high fantasy world where paladns can actualy make it. Either say flat out paladins don't exist, my worlds to realsitic for the rigid code i visualize, or two you don't make the code too rigid. For example make the code primarily good, and the lawful aspect only applies to good governments(or just laws), and to the methods the paladin will use outside of a governments reach.

 

[sword-dancer]

.

- The Paladin could appeal her classification as "witch". With what you've said, she could be a cleric for all we know.

And if she is a witch, or if the law is all paladisn are to be executed. That is no Solution.

- The Paladin could offer the authorities/village/mayor money in return for her release, with his promise that he'll personally escort her out of the village/city/country. Banishment is better than death.

This is a bribe, which circumvented or broke the law, unlawful.

I would declare this murder, unjust, and it is necessary to defend the innocent.
Oh and overcome and punish the Rulership.

 

[Lela]

This is a bribe, which circumvented or broke the law, unlawful.

Not always true. Some societies (and religions) often allow for money in exchange for crimes (or sins). This has tappered off in western culture but is still noticable in lesser offenses. Many crimes (I would say most but I can't prove it) in the U.S. for instance allow for a choice of a fine or time in jail. And, as far as sins go, indulgences come to mind as the most promient.

This practice has declined over the last 4-8 hundred years as ideas of "fairness" and "equality" came into politics. If you had a backer it was perfectly legal to pay for your crimes with money. Even encouraged as it made revinue for the state (or local lord) and saved everyone time.

Now, if she turned out to be a cleric of the same faith as the Paladin, what do people think the Pal should do?

 

[Immort]

It comes back ta the question:

"What opinion would my God take of this nonsense?"

Law is not necessarily a mortal truth in fantasy. In RL sure we live by a code of laws dictated to us by the government be it a just government or a brutal dictatorship, either way, the only law we can be forcibly bound to is mortal law. (yeah, yeah, the catholic church likes ta hand down the law too, but it don't put you in jail, just threatens ya wit eternal damnation)

In a fantasy realm on the other hand, (fancy that, the paldin being a fantasy type character an all) the law is handed down by the gods as well as by the mortals. Now let me pose this question to you:

If a paladin changes how he acts on a city by city basis, would this not be a form of chaotic behavior?

ex:in one city bribery is a serious crime punishable by imprisonment, the paladin turns in individuals who attempt to bribe him,
in another city no service of any kind is offered unless an appropriate payment is made and in fact is required by law. Would the paladin then acting well within the law of the city be acting correctly if he too engaged in the same act (a lawful act) that he jailed someone for earlier?

A paladin is not a leaf blowing in the wind, it is not the reed that bends to the storm but the mighty oak that stands firm against it. Sometimes that oak breaks under the winds that the reeds survive, but the oak endures the winter, the darkness, the animals grazing. The paladin is the light in the darkness, the bastion of truth amidst the lies, the unwavering, and the law he/she follows is that of his/her god (or in the case of paladins who simply serve the cause of good itself, the code of conduct preaproved by the Dm before the character entered the game)

(okay okay, the god lovin' pals have a code too)

In summary the paladin follows THE LAW, not the law (oft times in civilized society both coincide, but their ain't a question which ta follow when the chips are down)

-Immort

 

[sword-dancer]

Not always true. Some societies (and religions) often allow for money in exchange for crimes (or sins). This has tappered off in western culture but is still noticable in lesser offenses. Many crimes (I would say most but I can't prove it) in the U.S. for instance allow for a choice of a fine or time in jail. And, as far as sins go, indulgences come to mind as the most promient.
?

I´ven`t consider this as paying manguild, or were guild or even a fine but a bribe.

 

[Lela]

I´ven`t consider this as paying manguild, or were guild or even a fine but a bribe.

Uh, I can't read that. Sorry.

 

[CrusaderX]

And, as far as sins go, indulgences come to mind as the most promient.

Indulgences associated with the Christian Church are usually terribly misunderstood.

This site however explains them well.