Should Insight be able to determine if an NPC is lying?

[Li Shenron]

Yes, it's possibly the most obvious reason for Insight to be in the game.

When someone IS lying, normally they roll Deception. You roll Insight against, and typically you only need to provide 2 outcomes: detect the lie or not (standard DM's answer: "he seems to tell the truth"). You don't really need an intermediate outcome like "you are not sure", because even when you tell the player there is no lie, the players won't be sure. The lower their roll, the less confident they will be, but they cannot assume anything.

When the NPC is NOT lying, you want to make it look the same so that the players may still be in doubt if they roll poorly, so IMO it's actually a good idea to make them still roll even if success is automatic ( since the NPC is not rolling Deception).

For added drama, a DM may also want to have a possible "false reading" outcome when there is no lie, i.e. have a chance that Insight results in "lies!" when there aren't any. If you want this option, my suggestion is NOT to tie this to a low roll (e.g. a natural 1), because that will give it away. Instead, pick a random number each time e.g. 14, so that if they roll a natural 14 then you tell them there is a lie when there actually isn't. You may find that mid-high numbers (10-15) work best for this

All these assume you want to let your players roll Insight in the open. If you roll for them and hide the result, you don't need any special idea.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Short answer: Yes, with a ‘but.’
Long answer: No, with an ‘except.’

This is really the best post in the thread.

Should Insight be useful in improving your odds of guessing correctly whether somebody is lying? Or giving you a hint of actions you could take to find out for sure? Sure.

Should a single Insight roll give you a 100% accurate, binary (true/false) lie-detector reading? No, I don't think so.

 

[77IM]

Should a dagger be able to kill an NPC?

(X) Yes
( ) No
( ) Lemon cupcakes

-----

Except...
Sometimes, when you hit an NPC with a dagger, they don't die!
Sometimes, when you miss an NPC with a dagger, they die anyway, a round or two later!
Sometimes, you can kill an NPC using something that isn't a dagger at all!
Sometimes, you can use a dagger to skin a rabbit, or cut slices of lemon meringue pie!
Sometimes, an NPC can use a dagger to kill YOU!

 

[DEFCON 1]

The fun part for me as a DM is when someone asks to roll Insight and rolls poorly... I just decide in the moment whatever I wish to say. Sometimes it's "You can't tell"... sometimes it's "You are dead certain they are lying"... sometimes it's "You think they are telling the truth, but something doesn't feel right"... or whatever I want. And sometimes *I'M* lying about what info I'm giving them and sometimes I'm telling the truth.

Nothing messes with my player's heads more than when they roll a '3' on Insight and I tell them "Oh yeah, this person is 100% lying to you"... and the truth is the NPC *is* lying to them. Because they automatically think that their bad roll means the exact opposite of what I've told them. When in truth their bad roll means they have no concrete information to hang their hat on, so nothing I say should be taken at face value because nothing their PC "notices" should be either.

It's like in poker... if you bluff, you occasionally need to be caught doing it so that your opponents can never know in the future whether you are or not.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Should a dagger be able to kill an NPC?

(X) Yes
( ) No
( ) Lemon cupcakes

-----

Except...
Sometimes, when you hit an NPC with a dagger, they don't die!
Sometimes, when you miss an NPC with a dagger, they die anyway, a round or two later!
Sometimes, you can kill an NPC using something that isn't a dagger at all!
Sometimes, you can use a dagger to skin a rabbit, or cut slices of lemon meringue pie!
Sometimes, an NPC can use a dagger to kill YOU!

This is a fun example which shows how flexible the game can be in practice. As much as our minds would like to simplify things into yes/no, pass/fail, or 1s/0s, it seems that a not-insignificant amount of the best fun awaits in the gray area in between.

 

[Yardiff]

Should a dagger be able to kill an NPC?

(X) Yes
( ) No
( ) Lemon cupcakes

-----

Except...
Sometimes, when you hit an NPC with a dagger, they don't die!
Sometimes, when you miss an NPC with a dagger, they die anyway, a round or two later!
Sometimes, you can kill an NPC using something that isn't a dagger at all!
Sometimes, you can use a dagger to skin a rabbit, or cut slices of lemon meringue pie!
Sometimes, an NPC can use a dagger to kill YOU!

Hopefully your not doing this with the blood of the NPC you failed to kill still on it.

 

[CleverNickName]

Yes, of course.

"Lying" is an attempt to deceive someone. An Insight check can give you an inkling whether or not an NPC is attempting to be deceitful.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Should a dagger be able to kill an NPC?

(X) Yes
( ) No
( ) Lemon cupcakes

-----

Except...
Sometimes, when you hit an NPC with a dagger, they don't die!
Sometimes, when you miss an NPC with a dagger, they die anyway, a round or two later!
Sometimes, you can kill an NPC using something that isn't a dagger at all!
Sometimes, you can use a dagger to skin a rabbit, or cut slices of lemon meringue pie!
Sometimes, an NPC can use a dagger to kill YOU!

I actually think this is a GREAT example because:

1) There are very explicit rules for how a dagger can be used to kill an NPC. Note that it's not not necessarily, "Roll one success, NPC dies" but it's one component: you roll to hit, then you roll some damage; wash/rinse/repeat and eventually it dies. Unless it has other counteractions it can take. And note that there are potentially negative consequences of trying this approach. (Surprise! He's a shapeshifted Dragon!)

2) As [MENTION=6776133]Bawylie[/MENTION] pointed out somewhere that if the PCs capture an NPC and hold a dagger to his throat, and for whatever reason they decide to kill him, it's also perfectly fine to narrate an insta-kill (possibly with some kind of die roll, although I'd probably let the player choose what sort...Medicine, straight Dexterity, etc., instead of an attack roll).

Similarly:

1) A successful Insight roll could be one component toward determining if an NPC is telling the truth. In some circumstances a single roll might even be sufficient. (That is, you figure out his Bond, at which point you figure it's highly likely that he is lying.) But there should be a consequence to trying and failing.

2) if a scene is properly set up so that the truth (or not) of the NPC can be determined by asking the right questions, looking for the right clues (including possibly spying on the NPC afterwards) then no Insight roll is needed.

 

[Satyrn]

Should a dagger be able to kill an NPC?

(X) Yes
( ) No
( ) Lemon cupcakes

-----

Except...
Sometimes, an NPC can use a dagger to kill YOU!

In Soviet Dungeon, lemon cupcake eats YOU.

 

[Mort]

1) A successful Insight roll could be one component toward determining if an NPC is telling the truth. In some circumstances a single roll might even be sufficient. (That is, you figure out his Bond, at which point you figure it's highly likely that he is lying.) But there should be a consequence to trying and failing.

I fully agree here - though the consequence seems fairly apparent - you gain incorrect information as in:

1. You think the subject is lying when he isn't; or
2. you think he's telling the truth when he's lying; or
3. You get the wrong bond - as in "I will protect the king or die trying." when his real bond is "I will kill the king even if I have to die trying."

#3 of those (wrong bond) is likely to lead to some interesting places - so seems like a great thing to incorporate.

2) if a scene is properly set up so that the truth (or not) of the NPC can be determined by asking the right questions, looking for the right clues (including possibly spying on the NPC afterwards) then no Insight roll is needed.

This is true, as far as it goes, but tricky. The DM must be flexible enough to really go with player input and make sure reasonable goals and their methods of execution are met with reasonable levels of success.

Too often DMs have a set solution in mind (that seems obvious to them) and are strangely inflexible to accepting others - leading to massive frustration from the players.