D&D General Should magic be "mystical," unknowable, etc.? [Pick 2, no takebacks!]

[Fanaelialae]

There is definitely a middle ground.

For instance, in the game I’m writing, types of magic are skills, or require complex rituals (basically skill challenge), in a system where you cannot ever get guaranteed success (only statistically very probable success).

In this system, each skill describes the sorts of things it can do, and what general principles underpin it. Then, you use skills like the physics engine in Gary’s Mod. The limits are scale and frequency of use, with spendable tied to attributes to overcome either limit or just juice a check into greater levels of success.

Absolutely. Hard and soft magic is a sliding scale, rather than discrete qualities. A dynamic magic system that has rules dictating its use would be softer than a rote magic system, but would still be on the hard side of the scale (since it is still defined by rules, even if those rules leave some wiggle room).

 

[beancounter]

I don't like the idea of mixing magic with science. If you can explain magic with science, it's no longer magic.

Magic implies a mysterious unknown force that can't be explained at a fundamental level.

 

[Oofta]

I view magic as tapping into power that exists everywhere in my campaign world. Call it the weave, aether, dark (magical) energy, what have you. Even things like anti magic zones only cut people off from easily accessing magic, it doesn't rid the area of inherent magic.

Some creatures such as dragons have evolved to use magic internally, it's part of their very essence with is why they aren't affected by anti magic zones. Even humans have some inherent magical abilities, they just don't realize it. It's why people can heal so quickly but to them it's just normal.

So there's multiple ways of focusing that energy into something perceptible. Wizards and artificers treat it similar to science, paladins by force of will, clerics by having power channeled through deities which in turn are just channeling energy gained by the prayers and belief of their followers. Some, like sorcerers, may not know how they tap into that energy so for them it's mystical.

But there is no one answer for every campaign and setting, and I don't think there needs or should be. Vive la difference.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Magic hardness is a spectrum. At the far ends you have magic with precise, reliable, empirically testable rules, and magic that is completely unknowable and acts seemingly at random. In between those extremes, there is a wide array of possibilities.

I have no issues with this, I just recon that a gamble system has a lower bound on the softness of the magic system.

I should note that magic could be presented "in world" as mysterious uncertain and rare, while the characters use it with little real downsides because of "plot protection", though D&D is really not that system.
Though low magic D&D (where the players and their opponents) are the only powerful magic users, comes close.

 

[Jer]

I never got the opportunity to play Ars Magica but even so the player using the spontaneous magic rules will have some expectation of success? will they not? This to me is still a hard magic system. Fantasy Literature that employ soft magic, the magic remains unknown and mysterious to the reader and most of the characters. One never knows what may or may not be done with it. Which is why as a literary trope it is very easy to mess up.

It also makes it hard for gaming if you have spellcasters in your game. The magicians need to have some understanding of the scope of what they can do for a game to work. (If you don't have actual PC spellcasters but do have magic that's another story - the modern campaign where the players are investigating weird occult phenomenon that has no rational explanation without access to the occult themselves - or with access that they can use but not understand - is a trope that works in a horror game quite well IME).

 

[Gammadoodler]

I don't like the idea of mixing magic with science. If you can explain magic with science, it's no longer magic.

Magic implies a mysterious unknown force that can't be explained at a fundamental level.

Arthur C Clarke would like a word with you.

 

[jmartkdr2]

If the player character wizards can use magic, the players need to know the rules - which means there need to be rules to follow. Otherwise the whole game losses coherency. Th idea that a wizard doesn't know how spellcasting works just breaks my brain.

In a game very unlike DnD, where being a wizard simply isn't an option, you could possibly go another route.

 

[Charlaquin]

I have no issues with this, I just recon that a gamble system has a lower bound on the softness of the magic system.

A gamble system? Like where you decide what you want the magic to do but there’s a chance something might go wrong, which increases proportionally to the power of the effect you chose? To me that seems like a pretty good balance point of magic hardness for an RPG. It allows the degree of predictably and controllability necessary for an RPG where the PCs’ actions are generally under the players’ control, while emulating a bit of the wildness and unpredictability of a softer magic system.

I should note that magic could be presented "in world" as mysterious uncertain and rare, while the characters use it with little real downsides because of "plot protection", though D&D is really not that system.

Yeah, although you have to be careful with this, lest you end up with ludonarrative dissonance. Using a very hard mechanical system to represent magic that is supposed to be soft in the narrative can end up making things feel disjointed. This is why the gambling system idea is a decent compromise. Randomization is a really good way of making highly constructed systems feel naturalistic.

Though low magic D&D (where the players and their opponents) are the only powerful magic users, comes close.

Yeah, this is kind of the best I, as a person who prefers more historical, esoteric magic, can do with D&D. The kind of world that D&D’s magic actually suggests is… Well, it’s Eberron, full stop. Eberron is, in my opinion, pretty much the perfect expression of a setting that accepts D&D’s magic at face value and explores the implications of such magic and the effects it would have on a world. Unfortunately for me, it isn’t the sort of magic I really want from my fantasy, so I have to go the route of mostly ignoring magic and assuming spellcasting PCs are the incredibly rare exceptions.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

A gamble system? Like where you decide what you want the magic to do but there’s a chance something might go wrong, which increases proportionally to the power of the effect you chose? To me that seems like a pretty good balance point of magic hardness for an RPG. It allows the degree of predictably and controllability necessary for an RPG where the PCs’ actions are generally under the players’ control, while emulating a bit of the wildness and unpredictability of a softer magic system.

I have generally found that any gamble mechanic strong enough to make magic seeming mysterious and uncontrolled tends to put players off from playing magic using characters unless the game is like Call of Cthulhu where the scenario only lasts a couple of sessions.
Where losing your remaining SAN, becoming a minion of Hastur and sacrificing the party is part of the fun.

 

[Lyxen]

I never got the opportunity to play Ars Magica but even so the player using the spontaneous magic rules will have some expectation of success? will they not?

They will have, but not only of success, but also on actual power delivered and possible side effects, but these might be vague. The spell might succeed only partially for example, and when looking at faerie magic, it's even more vague.

This to me is still a hard magic system. Fantasy Literature that employ soft magic, the magic remains unknown and mysterious to the reader and most of the characters. One never knows what may or may not be done with it. Which is why as a literary trope it is very easy to mess up.

I did not say that it would be perfectly soft, but it's a way to make it way softer than D&D.