D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Sacrosanct]

Sure, those are rare.

When you think about the chance for a 1e Magic-User to learn wish, it's about as rare, yeah?

Fast forward to 5e, and every wizard can learn wish as an expected part of gameplay.

But not every fighter can just chop the head off of something as an expected part of gameplay.

Fly or teleport or whatever "problem magic" is your thing fall into similar boats - expected in 5e, not guaranteed in 1e.

I'm not sure that that has to do with my comments about what a mundane class would look like, and pointing to the 1e fighter as an example.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm not sure that that has to do with my comments about what a mundane class would look like, and pointing to the 1e fighter as an example.

The 1e fighter was about as magical as the 1e magic user (+1 swords and low-level spell scrolls; vorpal swords and wish).

The 5e fighter, then, should be about as magical as the 5e wizard (the wizard gets cantrips, the fighter should have magical swords; the wizard gets wish , the fighter should have blackrazor)

If you take the 1e fighter and put it into 5e, it will still be weak, because it's not playing in the same genre as the other 5e classes.

 

[Sacrosanct]

The 1e fighter was about as magical as the 1e magic user (+1 swords and low-level spell scrolls; vorpal swords and wish).

No. That's not even close. A +1 sword isn't nearly comparable "magic wise" as the list of MU spells, even starting at 1st level spells.

 

[MichaelSomething]

The obvious solution is to make casters more mundane; not Fighters less mundane. Bring back expensive spell components! Remove cantrips! Make magic dangerous again!!

 

[overgeeked]

I think you're overstating or misremembering how many magic items were in 1e. There were a lot, sure, but they were mostly potions and scrolls. Lots of +1 weapons and armor though. But you're talking about vorpal weapons as if they are assumed every fighter has one. That simply wasn't the case. Exceptionally rare. I think in 31 years of AD&D being my preferred edition, I had one fighter who had something like that (it was a rod of lordly might). Just run the math in the DMG on the chances of one coming up.

It depends on the referee, really. When playing AD&D, we have a default of one offensive, one defensive, and one miscellaneous magic item for anything starting higher than 4th-5th level.

If you run official modules you’ll be swimming in magic items.

 

[Scribe]

Sure, those are rare.

When you think about the chance for a 1e Magic-User to learn wish, it's about as rare, yeah?

Fast forward to 5e, and every wizard can learn wish as an expected part of gameplay.

But not every fighter can just chop the head off of something as an expected part of gameplay.

Fly or teleport or whatever "problem magic" is your thing fall into similar boats - expected in 5e, not guaranteed in 1e.

So, as I've noted many times, martial classes should have an expectation of magic items.

 

[Voadam]

4e D&D seemed to handle martial mundanes well in balancing against supernatural warriors and casters. I remember thinking the rogue in our paragon game was the most dangerous PC in the party, followed by the fighter.

 

[I'm A Banana]

No. That's not even close. A +1 sword isn't nearly comparable "magic wise" as the list of MU spells, even starting at 1st level spells.

1st level fighter gets a +1 sword and adds magic to every attack roll.

1st level wizard gets a scroll of magic missile and can cast the spell once per day.

Which character is more magical?

My point is that the 1e fighter isn't really very mundane (though 1e characters in general are more mundane than 5e characters in general). It's playing in the same genre as the 1e magic user.

The 5e fighter is tethered to this "mundane" aesthetic, but the 5e magic users aren't playing in that genre anymore.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not at the current capability levels of the other classes. I'd buy a low magic game with 20 levels, but that's picking something else to give.

Sorry, missed replying to this before.

But yes, in the current game. They don’t need to teleport or animate shadows or create blades of air that hit 60ft across. They need to reliably be able to physically take down most anything in the game, very much including the Wizard, while not getting whammied easily, and exceeding what anyone else can do physically (without the aid of magic).

You can do that and still be “mundane” in the sense of not magical or explicitly supernatural.

Hell I’d say you can exceed what RL humans can do, even a little annime sauce like dashing annd cutting too quickly for the eye to follow, deflecting spells, etc, and still just be extraordinary, not magical or supernatural.

 

[not-so-newguy]

It depends on the edition. If I'm playing a b/x d&d (or clone), then martials are mundane. If I'm playing 5e, then they're supernatural like everyone else.

In the past, I've been very resistant to the idea of martial classes being supernatural; until I realized that the assumptions in 5e are not what I want out of my sword and sorcery RPG.