D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

I think high-level fighters should be powered by "Hollywood Physics". Not supernatural, but still able to pull off feats that are utterly impossible for a normal person.

 

[Minigiant]

At low levels, they could be either. Once you get to level 5 or so, they're clearly superhuman, and we should probably just accept that - or play strictly at low levels.

And, unfortunately, it does matter what stance the game takes on this, because if a 20th level Fighter has to be considered mundane (albeit the best of the best), that really tightly constrains the powers that they can have - and as discussed in the "bucket of crabs" thread, that's then a problem for the wider caster/non-caster balance.

It is less about the constraints of abilities but the expression of it.

An action movie star (a typically accepted representation of a 20th level fighter) in a fight scene could:

1. Punch
2. Grab
3. Trip/Knockdown
4. Punch someone else
5. Push
6. Grab someone else
7. Pull
8. Roundhouse

In a tun. Then do a combination of that next turn. And if there are still people standing... do it again.
Or simply attack 4-10 times a turn
We as D&D fans abstract that down to 3-4 basic attacks to make it easy.

The spy or heist movie star (a typically accepted representation of a 20th level rogue) rolls skill checks so high that no one by other master spies can match them.
We as D&D fan are divided on rogues making skill checks formalities.

And if we go horizontal in options instead of vertical in numbers, we cannot agree which mundane ones to allow.

 

[Oofta]

I made a comment in another thread once, saying that a taunt ability that forces enemies to attack you if they fail a will save is a perfectly viable design for a non-magical ability. It spawned a fairly heated discussion. Apparently some people think it's not possible to trick people without using magic.

When those targets can be any creature, no matter their intelligence, whether they understand your language or not, when it works even against creatures like unfeeling constructs and oozes*, it is supernatural in my book.

As a game mechanic, it was fine. It was not mundane, at all, IMHO.

*What do you say to taunt a construct? Your mother was an oilcan? An ooze? You're just a pile of phlegm with an attitude?

 

[Oofta]

I think high-level fighters should be powered by "Hollywood Physics". Not supernatural, but still able to pull off feats that are utterly impossible for a normal person.

I'm perfectly okay with high level fighters being Batman or Captain America. If that means I run around hitting things with a piece of sharpened metal, so be it!

 

[Crimson Longinus]

BTW, powers having to work on pretty much everything is an artefact of 4e's design. As every power can only be used once instead of there being common pool of uses situational powers are a bad idea. In situations where you can't use all your powers your overall power budget gets reduced. (They of course still botched this by including a lot of powers that were useless unless there were several targets.) But power pool like 5e battlemaster has is far more tolerant to situational powers. It doesn't matter if some of your powers are useless in a given situation, as long as some of your powers are viable you can still use your whole power budget.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

When those targets can be any creature, no matter their intelligence, whether they understand your language or not, when it works even against creatures like unfeeling constructs and oozes*, it is supernatural in my book.

As a game mechanic, it was fine. It was not mundane, at all, IMHO.

*What do you say to taunt a construct? Your mother was an oilcan? An ooze? You're just a pile of phlegm with an attitude?

If I remember correctly I even added some stupid exception in case the GM does not think the taunt is appropriate, but you ignored that when you reply here, just like people ignored every exception I listed in the original ability... But screw it:

Mundane Taunt: Every enemy within 30 feet who can hear your taunt and who can be reasonably argued to be in combat must roll a wisdom save against some DC. If they fail they must move as far up to you as they can and spend a reaction to attack you, and you may attack each of them once.

 

[Oofta]

If I remember correctly I even added some stupid exception in case the GM does not think the taunt is appropriate, but you ignored that when you reply here, just like people ignored every exception I listed in the original ability... But screw it:

Mundane Taunt: Every enemy within 30 feet who can hear your taunt and who can be reasonably argued to be in combat must roll a wisdom save against some DC. If they fail they must move as far up to you as they can and spend a reaction to attack you, and you may attack each of them once.

Sorry, I probably shouldn't have bothered replying since I don't want to relitigate 4E powers. Just explaining why it felt overtly supernatural to me. That's neither good nor bad, just that changing the label of the power to "martial" didn't make it any less supernatural to me.

If I were to play the game again (I won't for other reasons) I would just accept that for me there were no mundane classes until essentials. All, of course, in my opinion.

 

[theCourier]

I pick a third, more mysterious option...

 

[Minigiant]

I'm perfectly okay with high level fighters being Batman or Captain America. If that means I run around hitting things with a piece of sharpened metal, so be it!

The issue is the abilities of Batman, Captain, America, or John Wick are way more complex than any version of fighter in any D&D edition, D&D 3PP variant like A5e, or D&D spinoff like Pathfinder.

 

[Oofta]

The issue is the abilities of Batman, Captain, America, or John Wick are way more complex than any version of fighter in any D&D edition, D&D 3PP variant like A5e, or D&D spinoff like Pathfinder.

Yet I still enjoy playing them. I'm starting a new campaign that will probably go to level 20 (again) and we have a cleric along with a bunch of martial classes. I'm not the only one who doesn't equate complexity with fun.