D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Pedantic]

No. The fighter can be mundane in the sense of not being magical or expressly supernatural for all 20 levels.

Not at the current capability levels of the other classes. I'd buy a low magic game with 20 levels, but that's picking something else to give.

 

[Minigiant]

I don’t think bigger numbers is the answer. Just let them say no to failed rolls sometimes, and raise their numerical floor.

Not really. The model you’re thinking of apperently would be, but there are plenty of ideas in this thread that keep the fighter mundane while allowing it to be a high level character that isn’t dissonant with the rest of the party.

Could do one roll, or an effect with saving throws.

Most of the solutions suggested amount to bigger numbers or more dice rolls.

And saving throws without the attack rolls was a commonly balked at concept.

We are looking at either bigger numbers or more dice rolls or analysis paralysis or some mix of the three.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Bigger numbers are the go-to solution, because D&D, in general, and 5e, in particular, tends to reduce any non-spell/item action to a roll (if not several, all of which must succeed).

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

It can be done.

The issue is always about being okay with the results

That is the rub isn’t it?

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

That is the rub isn’t it?

I made a comment in another thread once, saying that a taunt ability that forces enemies to attack you if they fail a will save is a perfectly viable design for a non-magical ability. It spawned a fairly heated discussion. Apparently some people think it's not possible to trick people without using magic.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So when a flame tongue, +5 battle axe, vorpal long sword, or frost brand drops.

the paladin or ranger or barbarian or cavalier could also take...

if they even found weapons like that. Which are extremely unlikely of happening.

 

[Sacrosanct]

What both of these miss is that magic items were a class feature in 1e.

So 1e fighters were very magical - they were the class capable of using the most magical items (and 1e characters had a LOT of magic items!).

It'd be like if we worked vorpal swords and flametongues and armor of invulnerability into class features. After all, we did that for wizards (who no longer have to find spell scrolls to scribe in the wild or make checks to add spells to their books).

I think you're overstating or misremembering how many magic items were in 1e. There were a lot, sure, but they were mostly potions and scrolls. Lots of +1 weapons and armor though. But you're talking about vorpal weapons as if they are assumed every fighter has one. That simply wasn't the case. Exceptionally rare. I think in 31 years of AD&D being my preferred edition, I had one fighter who had something like that (it was a rod of lordly might). Just run the math in the DMG on the chances of one coming up.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I made a comment in another thread once, saying that a taunt ability that forces enemies to attack you if they fail a will save is a perfectly viable design for a non-magical ability. It spawned a fairly heated discussion. Apparently some people think it's not possible to trick people without using magic.

I think it's a bit deeper, honestly - more about the weird nature of control in TTRPGs and how a verb can be applied in novel ways and repeatedly and how magic can have arbitrary limits. But regardless, this is part of why a "magical" fighter goes down better. Everyone can buy a warrior who controls the mind of their enemies with powerful supernatural abilities (heck, a telepathic fighter with psionics could be a really interesting thing!).

I mean, look at what 5e did to the warlord I mean the College of Swords Bard.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think you're overstating or misremembering how many magic items were in 1e. There were a lot, sure, but they were mostly potions and scrolls. Lots of +1 weapons and armor though. But you're talking about vorpal weapons as if they are assumed every fighter has one. That simply wasn't the case. Exceptionally rare. I think in 31 years of AD&D being my preferred edition, I had one fighter who had something like that (it was a rod of lordly might). Just run the math in the DMG on the chances of one coming up.

Sure, those are rare.

When you think about the chance for a 1e Magic-User to learn wish, it's about as rare, yeah?

Fast forward to 5e, and every wizard can learn wish as an expected part of gameplay.

But not every fighter can just chop the head off of something as an expected part of gameplay.

Fly or teleport or whatever "problem magic" is your thing fall into similar boats - expected in 5e, not guaranteed in 1e.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not at the current capability levels of the other classes. I'd buy a low magic game with 20 levels, but that's picking something else to give.

Most of the solutions suggested amount to bigger numbers or more dice rolls.

I’m not sure that’s true, but I have several people on ignore basically until the 2024 PHB is out and hopefully these threads chill out, so I might be missing them.

My suggestions, for instance, raise the floor but don’t make the numbers bigger. Martials do plenty of damage. (Rogues could use a level 11 damage spike mechanic, but that another kettle of fish)

And saving throws without the attack rolls was a commonly balked at concept.

Eh, present a fighter that can hit every enemy under a certain CR with an area the fighter can reach with thier movement, and they must save vs dead. I think the people who hate it around here will represent a tiny minority of the larger community.

We are looking at either bigger numbers or more dice rolls or analysis paralysis or some mix of the three.

Nope. I mean you can do those, but preferably optionally, like in subclasses.

I guess technically if you give them a feature at level 15 where they add the result of thier attack roll to thier attack damage once per turn, or let the rogue use SA 2 per turn at level 13, that’s bigger numbers/more dice rolls, but it’s not in a way that will cause playability issues.

My suggestions in the other thread revolve around letting the fighter use Second Wind for skills without sacrificing the heals, and adding a “recovery” usage that recovers a level of exhaustion or one condition, using Action Surge to gain extra reactions or take a legendary action, and turning indomitable into legendary saves+. The numbers don’t increase, and the only increase to complexity is Action Surge, but it’s a very small complexity bump.