D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Voadam]

What does it look like? Are there any examples in all of literature and pop culture? I sure haven't seen them.

It is tough to come up with examples of any 20th level D&D class examples in all of non-D&D literature or pop culture.

Feist's magician gets into 20th level wizard territory. But that is fairly D&D ish.

 

[Micah Sweet]

4e D&D seemed to handle martial mundanes well in balancing against supernatural warriors and casters. I remember thinking the rogue in our paragon game was the most dangerous PC in the party, followed by the fighter.

Sure. How they did that was always the problem.

 

[Oofta]

That's a dodge.

The hang up is not on the shield,. It's on him being able to throw and return the shield as well as having a good unarmed, melee, and long ranged attack.

If you say "Shield throwing is magical" then you are mandating the DM to hand out a backpack of magic items to mundane characters.

If you say "Shield throwing is not magical" then you are mandating the Designers to hand out a backpack of feats, maneuvers, or class features to mundane characters.

Is there ever any instance anywhere that Steve can throw something else, some other shield-like object and have it return to him? For that matter is Is Sam Wilson Steve Rogers? Because Sam was given the shield and quickly replicated Steve's abilities to throw it and have it return.

It was a magical shield. Yes, if I want a fighter to have a weapon that they can throw that will return it has to be magical. Just like the shield. Besides, who says the litmus test for a high level fighter is that they have to work exactly like Captain America? He is not the template for a D&D fighter, he is just a touchstone that has similar capabilities. Which would include being able to throw a magically returning shield.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I would be fine with that in a game if they told us so. But I also really like the idea of anti-magic literally shutting off stuff like dragons and other supernatural creatures. Take the idea seriously as a worldbuilding tool.

They do tell us so in 5e. Unless I'm misremembering, it basically just says that spells don't work in anti-magic zones. If a dragon's ability to fly ought to be impeded the zone, it would say so. Much like you can't force a dragon to land by casting dispel magic.

IMCs creatures like elementals, giants, and dragons are inherently magical, allowing them to ignore the physical laws that would make them impossible in the RW. Those types of creatures wouldn't want to spend an extended period of time in an anti-magic zone (and by this, I mean on the scale of months or years) because they'd eventually grow sick and die without ambient magic. But they're able to function in those areas without issues for shorter periods without issues, because they essentially bring magic with them.

I'd be fine with a mundane fighter if the class only had something like a 10 level progression, after which you would be expected to take levels in some kind of mythic fighter class. The mythic fighter wouldn't even need to be inherently magical, though I think at least some options ought to be, but could have magic items baked into the class with a removal of attunement restrictions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That’s a good point. Older editions of D&D are explicitly trying to cover completely different subgenres of fantasy than 5E. Sword & sorcery is closer to where AD&D sits. High or epic fantasy is closer to where 5E sits. Nothing wrong with either, but arguing for sword & sorcery in 5E is just as pointless as arguing for high or epic fantasy in AD&D.

I'd argue that practically nothing in fantasy genres is as high or epic as 5e gets.

 

[Scribe]

They should begin at Olympic athlete level

Olympic level, at level 1?!

The blacksmith who becomes so skilled, he smiths magic weapons with nothing more than knowledge, grit, technique, and material selection.

The Artificer. A Magical class.

A thief who begins by stealing the contents of nobles' pockets, grows to steal the weapons off the belts of devils, and ends by stealing the color of a fair maiden's eyes or his rival's shadow.

There is literally nothing mundane about stealing the colour of eyes, or a Shadow, this is Magic.

-----

If one wants Mundane characters, and I do, why insist they can perform Magical tasks? They cannot, they are mundane.

 

[Micah Sweet]

see I dont think the problem is that Wizards can do any one of those things as their shtick, taken individually they balance. The problem is that Wizards get to do ALL of those things without any real impediments. If the Mystic was just manipulating minds, while the Thief was hiding in plain sight, the Fighter was shooting barrages of fire arrows and the Summoner was opening an escape portal, then it would be okay, maybe even fun

The problems is the Wizard can do ALL those things, they are too versatile, while the Fighter just hits more stuff.

What you've described is essentially the X-Men.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If you say "Shield throwing is not magical" then you are mandating the Designers to hand out a backpack of feats, maneuvers, or class features to mundane characters.

That's what I've been doing the whole time.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Badass Normal is one person taking down a whole room of professionals soldiers all by themselves. And then saying "amateurs..."

Yes, but that person is in no way 20th level.

 

[Minigiant]

Is there ever any instance anywhere that Steve can throw something else, some other shield-like object and have it return to him? For that matter is Is Sam Wilson Steve Rogers? Because Sam was given the shield and quickly replicated Steve's abilities to throw it and have it return.

It was a magical shield. Yes, if I want a fighter to have a weapon that they can throw that will return it has to be magical. Just like the shield. Besides, who says the litmus test for a high level fighter is that they have to work exactly like Captain America? He is not the template for a D&D fighter, he is just a touchstone that has similar capabilities. Which would include being able to throw a magically returning shield.

I think you are too focused on the shield. Let's take Cap out of it.

Do you think a high level mundane D&D warrior should be able to have a masterful melee weapon, ranged weapon, and unarmed attack?

If yes, should this be achieved with class features and feats or with magic items?