D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Scribe]

Do you think a high level mundane D&D warrior should be able to have a masterful melee weapon, ranged weapon, and unarmed attack?

Like say Battlemaster Maneuvers?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Cap's classic shield throw.

Create it without using most of the resources to make his other actions and peak human talents.

Never said the fighter isn't fun.
What I said is "Batman, Captain, America, or John Wick are way more complex than any version of fighter."

You can't make Batman, Captain, America, or John Wick with the fighter without adding supernatural abilities.

Invent a weapon called a throwing shield, add it to the equipment list, and allow a proficient user to make special maneuver with it that duplicates things Cap has done.

I've done it. Took about 20 minutes to work out. Tops.

 

[Voadam]

The hang up is not on the shield,. It's on him being able to throw and return the shield as well as having a good unarmed, melee, and long ranged attack.

That is your hangup?

In D&D it is fairly easy to have both a decent melee and ranged attack in the same character.

Rogue sneak attack dagger specialist. Done.

Taking this at face value that the specific shield is not the key part Captain America is a strength fighter with strength melee attacks and strength ranged attacks that are both decent. That is achievable in D&D.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I like fighters.

I don't like the dishonest that @Crimson Longinus mentions.

The game is designed for mundane characters to have more that just proficiency. But fighters, barbarian, and rogues don't have the resources to be of the level of skill as the inspirations of the classes in all the ways they are.

The fighter, the master of weapons, has to be loaded up with magic items to make up for their lack of versatility. But that isn't a base game assumption. That's dishonesty. And that's straight up mundane non-supernatural stuff.

Not having magic items assumed in 5e is a design mistake. One none of us have to follow.

 

[Oofta]

I think you are too focused on the shield. Let's take Cap out of it.

Do you think a high level mundane D&D warrior should be able to have a masterful melee weapon, ranged weapon, and unarmed attack?

If yes, should this be achieved with class features and feats or with magic items?

They are, or can be if the player wants. Direct comparisons don't really work though because there's no need for a D&D fighter to also use unarmed attacks, that's what weapons are for. But if it matters, take the tavern brawler feat. If you want multiple martial styles (I don't think it's necessary) take champion fighter.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Like say Battlemaster Maneuvers?

The issue with them is that you’re stuck with the same ones through all the levels. There should be more epic ones to choose from at the higher levels.

 

[Scribe]

The issue with them is that you’re stuck with the same ones through all the levels. There should be more epic ones to choose from at the higher levels.

Yes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Neither. They should begin at Olympic athlete level, proceed past that to world-record-athlete level, and eventually reach transmundane status, where their methods are or should be mundane (at least IRL), yet they achieve results that go beyond the confines of mundanity.

The blacksmith who becomes so skilled, he smiths magic weapons with nothing more than knowledge, grit, technique, and material selection. This is a transmundane character.

A thief who begins by stealing the contents of nobles' pockets, grows to steal the weapons off the belts of devils, and ends by stealing the color of a fair maiden's eyes or his rival's shadow. Initially, it is simply a growth of purely physical, demonstrable skill. But in a fantastical world, where the thin skein of reality is more porous than our own, superlative skill transcends the limits of mere physical action, leaving us able to say what was done, but forced to admit we know not how.

And if players prefer not to have characters that reach such transcendental heights? Don't play epic level. Most players don't play epic anyway, or so I've been told!

I always want to know how, or at least for there to be an answer to how in-universe even if I don't know it.

 

[Micah Sweet]

wait for it.

Answered your question, didn't I?

Not the objective part. What you've done is tell me what you personally find unfun.

 

[Fanaelialae]

To be fair, Bob has never been able to do those things in 50 years of D&D, so I hardly think he needs to equal them.

My intent is an equivalent impact, not perfect parity. I'm not suggesting that a high level fighter should cast Wish. But yes, I do think that classes should have an equivalent impact across all levels. IMO, Bob being able to attack slightly faster, while Joe is reshaping reality isn't even remotely equivalent. Neither was the 1e approach of wizards being able to cast one spell per day from a random assortment of spells, while 1st level fighters were pretty good, having access to any weapons/armor that their starting gold permitted them (or they could find during an adventure).

If we take two 5e 20th level characters, without magical gear (because, apart from the artificer, neither the quantity nor quality of these can be assumed) the fighter will basically be useless against many threats appropriate for their level (weapon immunity). Whereas the wizard can still be quite impactful and is largely nonplussed. IMO, this clearly demonstrates the disparity.

Also, "it's always been this way" is not a good justification for anything. It also isn't factual. Like it or not, 4e fighters were far more equivalent to their spellcasting counterparts, and far less reliant on magic items (especially with the optional rule for playing without magic items).