D&D 5E (2014) Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Fanaelialae]

Well, D&D does use clumsy mechanics like anti-magic zones that need to know whether you magic or not.

But, yes, you could entirely do away with such things, and just give all characters balanced abilities, leaving the specifics of how the player imagines them to the player. Other games that aren't D&D do that successfully.

A gargantuan dragon doesn't lose the ability to fly or belch fire just because it's in an anti-magic zone. However, at least by the standards of the real world, those things certainly seem magical.

I would be very much in support of all martials becoming increasingly more supernatural as they level, in a similar sense to dragons. Magical by the standards of the real world, but an accepted "that's just the way it works" element of the fantasy setting.

 

[cranberry]

Mundane.

In 1E they made up for their lack of magic by being able to wield +5 magical talking swords.

While magic users had to deal with high magic resistance monsters.

Seemed to work out fine.

 

[Cadence]

Pathfinder 1e had...

Extraoridnary - Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Supernatural Abilities - Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.

Spell-Like Abilities - Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.


Extraoridnary abilities included everything the Barbarian did, the Bards' Bardic Knowledge, Lore Master, and Jack of All Trades, the Clerics Aura, the Druids' Nature Bond, Nature Sense, Wild Embathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, the Monks' AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, and Still Mind, the Rangers' Favored Enemy, Track, Combat Style Favored Terrain, Hunter's Bond, Woodland Stride, Etc...

So, did PF1e allow something beyond Mundane that wasn't Supernatural? (Kind of definitionally in the way they set it up?)

 

[ECMO3]

Pathfinder had...

Extraoridnary - Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

Supernatural Abilities - Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Supernatural abilities are not subject to spell resistance and do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). A supernatural ability’s effect cannot be dispelled and is not subject to counterspells.

Spell-Like Abilities - Spell-like abilities, as the name implies, are magical abilities that are very much like spells. Spell-like abilities are subject to spell resistance and dispel magic. They do not function in areas where magic is suppressed or negated (such as an antimagic field). Spell-like abilities can be dispelled but they cannot be counterspelled or used to counterspell.


Extraoridnary abilities included everything the Barbarian did, the Bards' Bardic Knowledge, Lore Master, and Jack of All Trades, the Clerics Aura, the Druids' Nature Bond, Nature Sense, Wild Embathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, the Monks' AC Bonus, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Fast Movement, Maneuver Training, and Still Mind, the Rangers' Favored Enemy, Track, Combat Style Favored Terrain, Hunter's Bond, Woodland Stride, Etc...

So, did PF1e allow something beyond Mundane that wasn't Supernatural? (Kind of definitionally in the way they set it up?)

In think this is a great description of the difference between exrtraordinary and supernatural. I don't want this as rules in 5E, but from an understanding/theme point of view it spells out what we are talking about when you use those terms (or at least what I am talking about).

Current non-caster classes (Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian) have available options for all of these, but those that are "supernatural" or "spell like" are not mandatory options, so you can exclude those if you do not want supernatural. Additionally feats and races bring additional options to the table to truely tailor the kind of martial you want to build.

That is one of the great things about 5E, there is a very large class design space and with bounded accuracy it is also very forgiving if you are not "optimized".

 

[Fanaelialae]

Mundane.

In 1E they made up for their lack of magic by being able to wield +5 magical talking swords.

While magic users had to deal with high magic resistance monsters.

Seemed to work out fine.

1e had magic item tables that were weighted towards martial magic items. Characters were expected to obtain magic items.

3e tossed the weighting and 5e (technically 4e, if you count the optional rule) tossed the assumption of magic items. Additionally, 5e added attunement which severely limits what martials (who are highly reliant on magical items, unless you build that into the class) can use.

 

[Sacrosanct]

That may be true but that's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm saying is that an actual Tier 4 mundane character...

An actual character with no superpowers and no supernatural abilities that is of the quality of what D&D says Tier 4 is...

would be annoying to DM for and annoying to be in a party with.

I don't know. Were 1e name level fighters annoying to DM or have in the party?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Supernatural is the only real option in D&D. It may be anchored in "mundane," but magic is a part of a D&D character's life from birth to death (and then after death, too!). You slay giants, you slay dragons, you fight fiends, you survive explosions and cave-ins and poison gas and deadly falls, a night's rest restores you, you are not a "mundane" person.

That supernatural might look like intense training, or magic items, or being born of the gods, or whatever, but at the end of the day, even a level 1 fighter is head and shoulders above your average town guard or militia member, and that's the same kind of magic that helps dragons fly and giants breathe. You're magical.

There might be a filter or a style of D&D that's not so magical, but out of the box, with sorcerers and warlocks and wizards and clerics and druids, D&D heroes are magical, and fighters and rogues aren't exceptions to that if they're playing in the same genre.

This is something I dislike about modern dnd. Everyone is insanely high magic compared to what it used to be. In earlier editions there was no question about the basic fighter or thief being mundane rather than magical, and some people enjoy that.

The current direction is extremely alienating for people who want to play in lower magic settings or with entirely mundane characters. Sometimes Bob the human fighter is just Bob the human fighter, and not some legendary hero fated to slay gods and save the multiverse.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't know. Were 1e name level fighters annoying to DM or have in the party?

1E name level fighters were OP, able to take down Lesser Gods in a single round of combat and greater Gods in a few rounds.

Yes they were annoying.

 

[Minigiant]

I don't know. Were 1e name level fighters annoying to DM or have in the party?

High level 1e named fighters had weapons and armor only they could wear.

That's my point about it being annoying

A high level mundane as D&D describes would either require bringing back unfun rules OR giving them action movie turns that last 10-20 minutes to resolve.

Edit:
I mean go on YouTube and look up a fight scene from a major action movie character. Then realize what their actions would translate into D&D mechanics and turns. Then realize how many rolls that would be. Then realize because of the way D&D works they can do that every single turn.

 

[ECMO3]

This is something I dislike about modern dnd. Everyone is insanely high magic compared to what it used to be. In earlier editions there was no question about the basic fighter or thief being mundane rather than magical, and some people enjoy that.

The current direction is extremely alienating for people who want to play in lower magic settings or with entirely mundane characters. Sometimes Bob the human fighter is just Bob the human fighter, and not some legendary hero fated to slay gods and save the multiverse.

I like the high magic themes and the ability to make everyone magical. You can play completely non-magic rogues and fighters though and they are effective.

As far as being legendary, that really goes by level. If you are going to 20th level you are not going to be mundane. At that point you are at legendary levels of power.