D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[ECMO3]

The point is that more of the subclassses should be munane to replicate the various aspects of the nonsupernatural world.

But since XGTE it's been purely supernatural. Purely.
Why?

If martials should be mundane why for the last ~5 years have WOTC and all the major 3pps.... almost only produced supernatural martials... If not all... if there is unexplored aspects of the mundane world?

There is only been one manual since XGTE (TCE), so that is a sample size of 1.

Moreover the main reason for more supernatural subclasses is they are more popular than mundane subclasses. While the original Champion and Battlemaster remain the most popular subclasses, when it comes to "new" subclasses things like Echo Knights and Rune knights are way more popular than Samauris, Purple Dragons or Cavaliers.

IME most players want more magic and more magic like abilities. Even when they play "mundane" subclasses of non-casting classes they are still purposely getting these things through feats, multiclassing or races.

The biggest single specific gripe I have heard about fighters at my table is that there is no way to get Wrathful Smite without multiclassing. Several players have asked for a homebrew to rule allow it through Magic Initiate or Fey Touched or as a swap out for another spell on a Tiefling or Drow.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This is the "glacial" or "firehose" argument again. Like those are the only two options. I've yet to meet a staunch supporter of WotC's 5e release schedule who doesn't make this "either/or" claim.

They're the two options that have been profitable in the past. IDK about 'middling pace of release'
The funny thing I heard back in the day, was that 1e was put out like a book a year, because they literally used the profits from one book to pay the printer to run the next.
(They got their money's worth, no pages have fallen out of my 1e books.)

I disagree with this. Excluding it enables the player and DM to decide if they want it, and if the DM doesn't want it, then it should not be in the game.

Including it (whatever it is, Gnomes? Psion? whatever!) allows the DM to decide if they want it, and ban it if they don't (there, it's not in that game, at that table), and allow it if they do, and allows the player at a table where it isn't banned, to decide if they want it, and play it if they do, and play something else if they don't.

There's no harm or burden to anyone caused by inclusion.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Including it (whatever it is, Gnomes? Psion? whatever!) allows the DM to decide if they want it, and ban it if they don't (there, it's not in that game, at that table), and allow it if they do, and allows the player at a table where it isn't banned, to decide if they want it, and play it if they do, and play something else if they don't (or, the player who does want the included element can look for a different table if their DM bans it, for that matter).

There's no harm or burden to anyone caused by inclusion.

Yes, so long as the thing you don't want to use isn't load-bearing, and will mess other stuff up if you ban it.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes, so long as the thing you don't want to use isn't load-bearing, and will mess other stuff up if you ban it.

The usual elements that spark this kind of question (like this thread) are like, player-facing options - like races or classes. There hasn't been any sort of single-class dependence built into the game in WotC's tenure, and I don't think there's ever been a single-race dependence. Elves? "What if the evil MU casts sleep on the party at 1st level, and we have no elf?" ...

 

[Minigiant]

There is only been one manual since XGTE (TCE), so that is a sample size of 1.

i was counting setting books like EGTW and theme books like Bigby's.

Moreover the main reason for more supernatural subclasses is they are more popular than mundane subclasses. While the original Champion and Battlemaster remain the most popular subclasses, when it comes to "new" subclasses things like Echo Knights and Rune knights are way more popular than Samauris, Purple Dragons or Cavaliers.

That more has to do with the Samauri, Purple Dragon Knight and Cavalier sucking.

That's kinda the problem. WOTC kinda sucks at making martial stuff. And the 3pps born out of them kinda do as well.
They barely make anything that isn't a spell or mimicking a spell.

 

[ECMO3]

That more has to do with the Samauri, Purple Dragon Knight and Cavalier sucking.

Why/how do they suck?

I will admit the Purple Dragon Knight is kind of lost thematically, but Cavalier and Samauri are spot on IMO and two of the best designed subclasses.

 

[Oofta]

how said anything about flooding the market?

The current release has a relatively slow release schedule and is working well. Previous versions flooded the market and it failed. I have no idea what the correct amount is, nobody does. All we know is that the current release schedule is working. We also know that they floated the idea of additional classes shortly after 5E was released and it was soundly rejected.

I am not saying, nor have I ever said, that the only option is slow release or flood the market.

 

[Oofta]

Everyone who supports WotC's release schedule.

I never said that. I said that with previous releases they (TSR first then WOTC) flooded the market with product and it didn't work.

 

[Remathilis]

Modern D&D isn't generally designed as the toolkit I feel it should be. You change the rules and assumptions in the PH and you de facto change them for the bulk of all gamers, potentially including the ones you might want to play with, while contracting the potential base for ideas that have been shoved into the "optional" box in the latter chapters of the DMG with a sign saying "Beware of the Leopard" (if they're even still in the book at all).

That might have something to do with the attitude you're referencing.

I've always wondered if other RPG games have the same requirement for kit bashing as D&D. Do Call of Cthulhu fans want an option for fighting vampires? Shadowrun fans want warp drive technology? Starfinder fans demanding the option for Superheroes? D&D is the only game I know where people expect to be a dessert topping and a floor wax.

 

[Minigiant]

Why/how do they suck?

I will admit the Purple Dragon Knight is kind of lost thematically, but Cavalier and Samauri are spot on IMO and two of the best designed subclasses.

Cavalier: Unwavering Mark and Warding Maneuver have too few uses per long rest. Can't do your subclass thing often. So it scales poorly.
Samurai: Same problem with Fighting Spirit. Too few uses. Scales poorly. Rapid Strike is cool but it's level 15.

Cool ideas poor execution.