D&D 5E Should martial characters be mundane or supernatural?

[Vaalingrade]

I would not hold up 3e rogues as an example of game design working.

They were designed to be equal in combat to everybody else but their sneak attack working on only about half the opponents or situations, midling BAB, and legacy low hp did not allow them to actually be equal to other 3e classes in combat.

Far superior to prior edition non-spellcasting MUs with leather armor short sword and short bow thieves, but the class would still have to wait until 4e to actually achieve their actual execution on that combat parity design goal.

PF let rogues actually work against most enemies too.

 

[Maxperson]

That seems to be an error of interpretation on your part.

Olympic level weightlifting and fencing ability is well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Elite martial PCs are not ordinary mortals. That does not necessarily mean they are immortals. They can be extraordinary mortals.

4e does not exclude considering martials as magical, but as far as I know it does not say they are magical.

No. That portion isn't relevant to what I said. If you call out something is not magic in the traditional sense, you are automatically saying that it is magic in an untraditional sense. The rest is just flavoring at that point.

 

[Minigiant]

I would not hold up 3e rogues as an example of game design working.

They were designed to be equal in combat to everybody else but their sneak attack working on only about half the opponents or situations, midling BAB, and legacy low hp did not allow them to actually be equal to other 3e classes in combat.

Far superior to prior edition non-spellcasting MUs with leather armor short sword and short bow thieves, but the class would still have to wait until 4e to actually achieve their actual execution on that combat parity design goal.

Rogues were the best designed PHB class in 3e, 4e, and 5e.

BTW 3e rogue were not designed to be equal to everyone else in combat. They were supposed to be the weakest in combat of the traditional 4.

 

[Scribe]

Olympic level weightlifting and fencing ability is well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals.

No it isnt. If you said 'most' or 'many' ordinary mortals, perhaps.

Olympic athletes are mere mortals.

 

[Voadam]

PF let rogues actually work against most enemies too.

You think that and get excited because in PF you can now sneak attack constructs and undead where you could not in 3.0 or 3.5, then still get tripped up against oozes, elementals, and anybody with fortification.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

3e worked just fine

No.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Rogues were the best designed PHB class in 3e, 4e, and 5e.

I'm on record as considering the 3e fighter the best-designed class, elegant in it's simplicity, yet having customizeability and depth. The Rogue was just nearly random class features, by comparison - the Expert was better designed.
5e is not much better, TBH. The Thief all but hangs it's hat on Expertise, and then the full-casting Bard also gets it?

4e, it's a nicely-done 'A' class (single primary, dual secondary, as opposed to benighted 'V' classes), with build support in its encounter exploits, and some cool secondary control. Warlord was also a solid contender.

BTW 3e rogue were not designed to be equal to everyone else in combat. They were supposed to be the weakest in combat of the traditional 4.

Just not as bad as the TSR Thief. There was a lot of room between TSR Thief, and just as good as everyone else.

 

[Garthanos]

That seems to be an error of interpretation on your part.

Olympic level weightlifting and fencing ability is well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Elite martial PCs are not ordinary mortals. That does not necessarily mean they are immortals. They can be extraordinary mortals.

4e does not exclude considering martials as magical, but as far as I know it does not say they are magical.

Its easy to interpret some of the extreme maneuvers as involving chi ie focusing of the life force, any ability involving spending a healing surge can be seen that way at some level. Martial Artists approach their craft as an explicit power source which digs deep to go beyond the norm. In 5e the community considers monks martial but the game refers to their abilities as magical I seem to recall. Its supposed to be ambiguous I think.

 

[Garthanos]

No it isnt. If you said 'most' or 'many' ordinary mortals, perhaps.

Olympic athletes are mere mortals.

Agreed a moderately high level fighter is functionally as strong as Rhino or eventually matching great Dragons... not Olympic level at all.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Its easy to interpret some of the extreme maneuvers as involving chi ie focusing of the life force, any ability involving spending a healing surge can be seen that way at some level. Martial Artists approach their craft as an explicit power source which digs deep to go beyond the norm. In 5e the community considers monks martial but the game refers to their abilities as magical I seem to recall. Its supposed to be ambiguous I think.

And I think in a fantasy world it is fine to say that mighty martial combatants have semi-mystical "warrior spirit" or somesuch which they can cultivate to surpass the real life mortals.