Should PCs be forced to act a certain way because of their stats?

[Janx]

I agree that a character is much more than what is on the sheet and it is often at this higher level that interesting details emerge (like why a character with a 7 INT is good at combat tactics). But a player, IMO, should at least consider and weigh his attributes when designing the personality. If a player hands me a character sheet with background and I see a 3 WIS, but the character is described as a worldly sage known for his keen observation and intuition, I am going to do a double take and ask him to justify it (I am not sure this one can be justified but it is an extreme case).

Glenn Beck.

 

[Gentlegamer]

I agree that a character is much more than what is on the sheet and it is often at this higher level that interesting details emerge (like why a character with a 7 INT is good at combat tactics). But a player, IMO, should at least consider and weigh his attributes when designing the personality. If a player hands me a character sheet with background and I see a 3 WIS, but the character is described as a worldly sage known for his keen observation and intuition, I am going to do a double take and ask him to justify it (I am not sure this one can be justified but it is an extreme case).

That's why I don't believe in 'backgrounds' for beginning level characters. Your character's background will be the story you forge at the table, in-game. When you are 10th level looking back over your exploits, that's your background.

 

[JamesonCourage]

To me, this is exactly the same thing as ignoring any other part of your character sheet.

It is. I don't understand the opposition to what you've been putting forward in this thread. Or, more accurately, I don't understand why people can't see how your point makes sense, even if they don't go about the same thing for their group.

You know, between agreeing with you here, and earlier about your rules interpretation of 3.X's Intimidate skill, I feel we're getting along too well. When will we return to normal?

 

[The Shaman]

That's why I don't believe in 'backgrounds' for beginning level characters. Your character's background will be the story you forge at the table, in-game. When you are 10th level looking back over your exploits, that's your background.

Amen.

 

[Dausuul]

To me, this is exactly the same thing as ignoring any other part of your character sheet.

It is. I don't understand the opposition to what you've been putting forward in this thread. Or, more accurately, I don't understand why people can't see how your point makes sense, even if they don't go about the same thing for their group.

I don't ignore my character's Int. If I'm playing 3E, that number modifies my skill points and knowledge skills, and is a prereq for certain feats. If I'm playing 4E, it modifies my knowledge skills, Reflex, and AC, and is also a prereq for certain feats. In every edition it affects my languages known, and spells if playing a wizard.

I follow every one of those rules. And when somebody points me to the rules that lay down precisely what plans I am allowed to devise, what puzzles I am allowed to solve, and what tactics I am allowed to use at a given Intelligence score, I shall certainly follow them to the letter.

What I find hard to follow are the vague unwritten rules that exist in the heads of players and DMs, where every person has his or her own standard of what's "too smart" or "not smart enough." I used to try to follow those "rules," and I still make some effort to match persona to stats, mostly out of habit. But I no longer police other people's RP choices and I believe such policing is detrimental to the game. In my game, you can play your Int 8 character as a bloody genius if you like... just so long as you remember to apply the -1 penalty whenever you make a roll to know anything about anything. You may be a brilliant natural strategist, but you ain't been edjumacated for squat.

 

[The Shaman]

In my book he's still a ninja wannabe and will be humiliated by any DEX 18 ninja, no matter if his character sheet says lv 3 ninja or what.

If the 18 DEX ninja is the same level, he will be more skilled, yes; but if there's a reasonable level disparity, that's not true; it also overlooks the fact that Hubert will have better ninja skills than others in the party who are not ninjas or similarly stealthy characters.

But a CHA 6 leader is probably going to be comic instead of epic.

He may well be, but if the player's having fun running a character who believes he's a commanding presence, and he gets lucky enough once in awhile to reinforce that belief, then who care if it's epic or not?

 

[Elf Witch]

I believe there is more to a character then what is written on his sheet and characters should not have to play a stat the same way. Take the low int barbarian one way to play him is a someone who rushes into combat takes a lot of chances and has no strategy. Another perfectly valid way is to play him is good in combat he knows how to swing his sword and knows how to avoid other people swing theirs. But because of his low int he is not so good when it comes to solving puzzles or making great leaps of logic.

That being said I do think if you choose to have character with a lower than average stat then you need to make some effort to play it that way. I do feel it is kind of cheating to take a low stat and then just ignore it. As Umbran said it smacks of having your cake and eating it too.

I saw someone brought up alignment I use it in my game and I expect my players to try and follow what they have chosen now they are free to change their minds anytime and unless there are rule issues involved then there is really no consequence. I don't allow other players at the table to say you are not doing it right. It always between myself and the player. But I would not allow someone to take CN just so they don't have any restrictions then play in a totally different way.

As for a character saying in his back story he is a great sage but there is no way his stats support that ,that is very simple the character thinks he is a great sage and he may even fool people of less intelligence but he may meet people who think he is an idiot or a fraud.

The same with a character who has a low chr he may play the character as having a high one and may see himself that way but that does not mean the NPCs he encounters look at him the same way.

 

[Dausuul]

I saw someone brought up alignment I use it in my game and I expect my players to try and follow what they have chosen now they are free to change their minds anytime and unless there are rule issues involved then there is really no consequence. I don't allow other players at the table to say you are not doing it right. It always between myself and the player. But I would not allow someone to take CN just so they don't have any restrictions then play in a totally different way.

Would you allow a player to not declare alignment at all and just play his or her character?

 

[Elf Witch]

Would you allow a player to not declare alignment at all and just play his or her character?

Yes I would with the understand for certain things like traps or weapons that only effect a certain alignment I as the DM get the final judgement based on how the character is played on how if effects the character.

I had a player once say he wanted to play a character who thought he was lawful good but in reality was far from it. So on his character sheet he listed lawful good but he left it up to me to decided what his real alignment was if it came to items and other things.

 

[Hussar]

If you and the other players stopped metagaming his character sheet, nothing would be wrong with the portrayal.

Well, other than the fact that his portrayal is actually contradicted by the alignment he chose for that character. Yup, his portrayal was perfectly good for a lawful character.

What you take away from this is that the player should have played true to his CN alignment, or picked an alignment that matched how he intended to play his character.

What I take away from this is that the player didn't want to be hassled by the Roleplaying Police about his alignment, and so chose an alignment he felt would put him outside their jurisdiction. It's not because he actually thought his character was chaotic--he just didn't want to have to try and divine what your particular group meant by "lawful" and "chaotic" and "good" and "evil."

The player was apparently quite consistent in how he played the guy, so I find myself wondering why it was important to make him declare an alignment at all, since he evidently didn't want to and could play his character perfectly well without.

Other than the fact that alignment in 3e D&D (and previous editions) has a concrete, mechanical effect? How should I have his character interact with a Dispel Chaos spell?

I see mental stats the same way. I don't want to have to sit down and suss out what your group means by "Int 11" or "Cha 8." Or, for that matter, "Int 18" or "Cha 20." I want to make a character and play that character in the way that feels right to me, and if that character seems smart or dumb to you, you have my permission to slap whatever number you like on the sheet.

If that means you tell me to slash my fighter's other stats to buy up her Intelligence to the level you find acceptable, so be it. I think it's pretty lame that fighters pay in-game resources for the option to play smart while wizards effectively get it for free (I have never yet met the edition of D&D where wizards needed the power boost!), but whatever. If it spoils your fun that there's not a certain number on my character sheet, tell me the number and I'll write it. But I don't see that it's my job to play twenty questions and figure out what that number ought to be.

Sigh. Why am I doing it at all?

Do you honestly believe that an 8 Int character should act as intelligently as an 18 Int character? All the time?

Because that's what it comes down to. If you honestly believe that the stats don't matter at all, can the DM do the same? Can the DM play the zombies to the best of his abilities, not what he judges the zombies capable of? How about an ooze that moves to flank, avoids being flanked, works in cooperation with other creatures and so on?