D&D 5E (2014) Should player's assume if it's in the DMG then it's RAW?

[Morrus]

I understand that we all play things different in our home games so that's not really the issue here. It's the default assumption of the game. I don't always play with people I know or with my usual group. Sometimes I will guest DM so I rely on the default of the game. I believe that if the material in the DMG was for a players then it would be in the PHB and not the DMG.

Well, you've answered your own question, then. In your games the DMG is off-limits to your players. Tell them that! I'm not sure what the question is now....

 

[pkt77242]

Basically, should people just stay away from the DMG if they aren't DMing?

I had a player come to me about selling a magic item. He automatically assumed that all he needed to do was make his Investigation roll and then roll for days to find a seller and BAM, his item is sold. I explained to him that's not how it works in my world. "Well the DMG says XYZ", was the response I got and I told him he shouldn't assume anything he reads in the DMG is automatically RAW.

What do you think?

If you didn't tell the player ahead of time that they couldn't sell magic items, then he made an assumption based off of rules that he could do it. You are trying to blame the player as if it is their fault instead of taking some responsibility for not communicating it in advance. This isn't a rare thing for players to want to sell magic items (yes some DMs allow it and some don't) but it is probably something that could have been cleared up earlier. There is nothing wrong with what the player did.

 

[seebs]

But why should players even bother worrying about what's in the DMG?

Because it's one of the rulebooks of the game. You're assuming a much more adversarial style of play than D&D has usually assumed in recent years; it's a lot more like the system implied by the Knights of the Dinner Table comics with their jokes about Hackmaster and the GM trying to screw the players. And you don't sound like you're trying to screw them, but you're assuming that player and GM are unrelated categories and that players have no business reading the special GM book. But that's just not how D&D has worked in ages.

On the other hand, it's also the case that 5e has made it even more clear than previous editions that the DMG's guidelines and suggestions are all there as things to consider using, not things that should be assumed to be in place by default, so I wouldn't assume magic item sales work like that, because I wouldn't be assuming that as a GM either.

 

[KarinsDad]

The part I disagree with is the one about "not telling them ahead of time. To keep it fair the DM should inform the players of house rules before the game starts.

The reason that I view the "inform the players of house rules" ahead of time for PHB only as reasonable is that I view the DMG the same as I view the Monster Manual. These are DM campaign rules, not player rules. Just like I might make my troll vulnerable to cold and immune to fire and not tell the players ahead of time, I might alter or even eliminate the magic item creation rules without telling the players ahead of time.

I think that the reason that the item creation rules appear to be more player oriented (i.e. PHB-like rules) is because item creation is an action that PCs do. But still, I view DMG (and MM) rules as DM territory.

 

[seebs]

I disagree 100%

There is a reason why we have a DMG and a PHB. Why should the players assume anything in the DMG is core? I believe what's in the DMG is for the DM to pick and choose what he wants to use. The player should assume nothing in the DMG is there and the DM will inform them on what is used.

The players should assume the DMG is core because it says it's one of the core rulebooks of the game. If you want to tell the players not to assume that you use the default rules presented in the DMG, you should tell them that. It's not an automatic assumption everyone will share.

 

[pkt77242]

The players should assume the DMG is core because it says it's one of the core rulebooks of the game. If you want to tell the players not to assume that you use the default rules presented in the DMG, you should tell them that. It's not an automatic assumption everyone will share.

^This.

 

[Umbran]

The DMG is filled with *optional* rules. Some of those rules are, as I understand it, mutually exclusive. A player cannot assume that, if something appears in the DMG, that it will work that way at a particular table.

I think a player should be able to assume that anything in the PHB that isn't in a sidebar is okay, unless told otherwise. Some of the PHB sidebars are optional.

It is part of the DM's job to inform the players of what rules are in effect.

 

[Sailor Moon]

The DMG is filled with *optional* rules. Some of those rules are, as I understand it, mutually exclusive. A player cannot assume that, if something appears in the DMG, that it will work that way at a particular table.

I think a player should be able to assume that anything in the PHB that isn't in a sidebar is okay, unless told otherwise. Some of the PHB sidebars are optional.

It is part of the DM's job to inform the players of what rules are in effect.

This this this!

You assume what's in the PHB is good to go unless the DM mentions it. Going ahead and reading the DMG and then assuming everything in it is for you is where the mistake is.

 

[eryndel]

I think in this case, the player should have asked instead of assumed. Not having received the DMG, I can't tell you how things are presented, but I'd expect everything there is really up to the DM on how they want to tailor their game. I wouldn't have any issue with one of my players reading the DMG and getting inspired by things, but if they wanted to used one the systems I'd expect they would ask me if I'm using those rules.

That's just around my table... YMMV.

 

[Sailor Moon]

Because it's one of the rulebooks of the game. You're assuming a much more adversarial style of play than D&D has usually assumed in recent years; it's a lot more like the system implied by the Knights of the Dinner Table comics with their jokes about Hackmaster and the GM trying to screw the players. And you don't sound like you're trying to screw them, but you're assuming that player and GM are unrelated categories and that players have no business reading the special GM book. But that's just not how D&D has worked in ages.

On the other hand, it's also the case that 5e has made it even more clear than previous editions that the DMG's guidelines and suggestions are all there as things to consider using, not things that should be assumed to be in place by default, so I wouldn't assume magic item sales work like that, because I wouldn't be assuming that as a GM either.

You can physically read the DM guide all you like, but assuming the book is for players and therefore assuming whats in it can be expected is where the mistake comes into play.